# Stupid liberal idea of the day **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086 "2011-04-20T15:35:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/581 "2012-01-07T04:48:57Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > This nanny state seems to think none of us can possibly take care of ourselves, which has nothing to do with whether or not I believe in free market. So are you in favor of my right to operate a tiger-infested poisonous flower/landmine farm or not? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/582 "2012-01-07T04:51:31Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > So are you in favor of my right to operate a tiger-infested poisonous flower/landmine farm or not? I really have no opinion on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/583 "2012-01-07T06:47:11Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Perhaps you should look into how the economy works before you make really dumb statements like these. For example, I pay taxes and spend money, both of which are good for the economy. Yes, I’m well aware that you spend _my_ money and pay taxes on _my_ money but those things, in the absence of you being a _contributor_ to the economy, by producing something (look up the word “productivity”) do not make you an asset, they make you a drain. > [@](#): > > You are not paying my way in any way, and when I said “here”, I meant in California. Do you not see the stupidity of making statements of the effect that illegals have in a state you don’t live in? Yes, I understand that you want to deflect attention by trying to pretend that I am the same problem that illegals are simply because I cheated myself out of all of my social security by taking it early - wait, you don’t actually believe that do you? Who’s paying your way for you, then? In real life facts, in part, the people who are paying for you to not contribute anything to the economy are illegals, since they, like me, are net contributors to the economy. Unlike people like you who produce nothing. > [@](#): > > No, they are not making a positive contribution Only a Republican would think that doing work is not contributing to the economy, while collecting the benefits of other people’s work is. > [@](#): > > but yeah go try that line on any retiree and see how far you get. You’re not a retiree. You don’t have a whole life of contribution to look back on. > [@](#): > > Hard to believe you actually have a paying job. I’m beginning to realize that it’s hard for you to imagine how anyone could actually be a productive contributing member of society. > [@](#): > > Really? Is that why we have so many more poor people than we did just a couple-three decades ago? We don’t. Most people are not like you. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/584 "2012-01-07T07:44:26Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > Yes, I’m well aware that you spend _my_ money and pay taxes on _my_ money but those things, in the absence of you being a _contributor_ to the economy, by producing something (look up the word “productivity”) do not make you an asset, they make you a drain. Again with the stupid. I’m not spending your money, and just because you would sit on your butt and be useless when you retire/become disabled doesn’t mean everyone else does as well. > [@](#): > > Who’s paying your way for you, then? My husband. > [@](#): > > In real life facts, in part, the people who are paying for you to not contribute anything to the economy are illegals, since they, like me, are net contributors to the economy. Unlike people like you who produce nothing. Funny how you use the term “real life facts” and then go on to make guesses and false assumptions. > [@](#): > > Only a Republican would think that doing work is not contributing to the economy, while collecting the benefits of other people’s work is. What is it called when someone can’t parse a sentence, and/or put together an intelligent response to it? If you would like to try again, it was “No, they are not making a \*positive \*contribution”. BTW, I am collecting the benefits of my work. > [@](#): > > You’re not a retiree. You don’t have a whole life of contribution to look back on. I see. You have some minimum number of years one must work before you think they are qualified to get their social security? Do you go around asking retirees if they have worked enough years to satisfy you? What about children who get their deceased parent’s funds, do you have requirements for them too? Or housewives that never worked and get their spouse’s benefits after he passes on? > [@](#): > > I’m beginning to realize that it’s hard for you to imagine how anyone could actually be a productive contributing member of society. Fortunately, since I don’t seem to see much of it here, I do see it in real life. > [@](#): > > We don’t. Most people are not like you. Well, that made a lot of sense. Yes, most people are not like me, but that has zero to do with whether we have more poor people or not. I realize this is the Pit and all, but you should at least try to stay within shouting distance of the point. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/585 "2012-01-07T08:37:32Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Again with the stupid. I’m not spending your money, and just because you would sit on your butt and be useless when you retire/become disabled doesn’t mean everyone else does as well. I have a job. You’re the one who’s sitting on your butt, while I’m paying into the system that is paying you money. > [@](#): > > My husband. Oh. Well, I had thought you were collecting disability. If you’re not, and you’re just spending his money, it’s no skin off my back. > [@](#): > > Funny how you use the term “real life facts” and then go on to make guesses and false assumptions. Real life fact: People who consume but do not produce are not an addition to the economy. The people who earned the money you’re living off would have spent it anyway, so you spending it for them doesn’t help the economy, and you not producing anything hurts it. Sorry it offends you that we also allocate some resources to undocumented immigrants but at least they, unlike you, are producing something of value to us. > [@](#): > > What is it called when someone can’t parse a sentence, and/or put together an intelligent response to it? If you would like to try again, it was “No, they are not making a \*positive \*contribution”. I suppose it’s called “curlcoat’s excuse for not working and instead spending other people’s money”. > [@](#): > > BTW, I am collecting the benefits of my work. No, you’re not working. You already said that. You are collecting the benefits of _my_ work, and the work of people like me. > [@](#): > > I see. You have some minimum number of years one must work before you think they are qualified to get their social security? I certainly don’t think you paid every bit into the system that you’re now collecting. Even people who retire don’t do that (the system depends on population growth to make up for that disadvantage) but they have at least earned their allotted share. As you pointed out, you are on disability, so you have not done that. > [@](#): > > Do you go around asking retirees if they have worked enough years to satisfy you? I don’t have to. Their monthly payments depend on their contributions. Something you might be aware of if you had more experience earning money and being taxed on it. In fact, every couple years the government even sends me a worksheet detailing how much I’m entitled to collect if I retire now (basically zip, since I’m still young.) You would be familiar with this if you had had experience earning money like I have. > [@](#): > > What about children who get their deceased parent’s funds, do you have requirements for them too? Or housewives that never worked and get their spouse’s benefits after he passes on? Housewives work. You don’t work. Vital, fundamental difference. > [@](#): > > Fortunately, since I don’t seem to see much of it here, I do see it in real life. You mean, in the work done by the people whose earnings you depend on? > [@](#): > > Well, that made a lot of sense. Yes, most people are not like me, but that has zero to do with whether we have more poor people or not. I realize this is the Pit and all, but you should at least try to stay within shouting distance of the point. You got basic facts wrong. Perhaps being too stupid to get basic facts right is part of your reason for not working. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/586 "2012-01-07T16:47:14Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > This nanny state seems to think none of us can possibly take care of ourselves Which works out quite well for people who actually can’t, like you. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/587 "2012-01-08T00:23:36Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > I have a job. You’re the one who’s sitting on your butt, while I’m paying into the system that is paying you money. Nice sidestep, sort of. > [@](#): > > Oh. Well, I had thought you were collecting disability. If you’re not, and you’re just spending his money, it’s no skin off my back. I am collecting SSDI. However, it is such a small amount it in no way supports me. Of course, if you had a brain and a clue, you would know that. > [@](#): > > Real life fact: People who consume but do not produce are not an addition to the economy. The people who earned the money you’re living off would have spent it anyway, so you spending it for them doesn’t help the economy, and you not producing anything hurts it. Real life fact: Just because someone isn’t getting a paycheck doesn’t mean they aren’t producing. Which ties in with my saying just because you would sit on your butt and be useless after you retire doesn’t mean everyone does. > [@](#): > > Sorry it offends you that we also allocate some resources to undocumented immigrants but at least they, unlike you, are producing something of value to us. At the expense of legal citizens. Any value they produce is greatly outweighed by the cost. > [@](#): > > I suppose it’s called “curlcoat’s excuse for not working and instead spending other people’s money”. Ya know, you really need to go buy a clue, find someone who can show you how to use it and then in a year or so after it has sunk in, come on back. You have been wrong about pretty much everything, yet you continue to make those guesses and false assumptions. Either you are dumber than dirt, or you are trolling. > [@](#): > > No, you’re not working. You already said that. You are collecting the benefits of _my_ work, and the work of people like me. However I did work, for decades and during all that time the government made me pay into social security. Those are the benefits that I am now getting. The fact that the government stole money out of the social security fund and it now doesn’t have enough to cover everyone who is owned reimbursement doesn’t mean that I am collecting the benefits of your work. If you want to play that game, then you owe me money for helping to fund your 12 years of schooling plus whatever college you may have attended. Then when you have kids, you will owe me for helping to fund their schooling. > [@](#): > > I certainly don’t think you paid every bit into the system that you’re now collecting. Well, that just proves once again that you have no idea what you are talking about, doesn’t it? > [@](#): > > Even people who retire don’t do that (the system depends on population growth to make up for that disadvantage) but they have at least earned their allotted share. As you pointed out, you are on disability, so you have not done that. OK then, you tell me - what is the “allotted share”? How many years does someone have to work before you will allow them to collect? Or do you want to go by how much money they paid in? :rolleyes: God you are an asshole. > [@](#): > > I don’t have to. Their monthly payments depend on their contributions. Again with the cluelessness - do you really think it’s any different for people getting SSDI? Are you even aware that I am getting much less than I would have if I’d made it to retirement age AND that it won’t go up when/if I get there? Where did you get the idea that SSDI is free money? > [@](#): > > Something you might be aware of if you had more experience earning money and being taxed on it. In fact, every couple years the government even sends me a worksheet detailing how much I’m entitled to collect if I retire now (basically zip, since I’m still young.) > > You would be familiar with this if you had had experience earning money like I have. Honey, I worked for decades. I am well aware of how social security works, and I am _far_ more aware of how SSDI works than you. > [@](#): > > Housewives work. You don’t work. Vital, fundamental difference. Yeah? What work do housewives do that I don’t? > [@](#): > > You got basic facts wrong. Perhaps being too stupid to get basic facts right is part of your reason for not working. No, I cannot work due to physical issues. That is another basic fact you are completely unable to understand, because you would rather flail around like an idiot than even try to find a fact. Just to be nice, here are the basics - Disabled does not equal bed ridden. SSDI does not pay anything close to a living wage. Social security is not a government handout like any of the welfare programs. Anyone who is either disabled or lives long enough will get SS payments if they have paid into the system long enough. Being on SSDI doesn’t mean one cannot work, it simply means one cannot be paid for it. Now, if a disabled person is doing so much that they could hold a job, there would be issues, but there is certainly nothing wrong with volunteering one’s time as much as one is able. And, that is all the time I am going to spend on that. Unless you manage to absorb some learning, the most I am going to do is point you back to this post, and specifically this sentence - You have no idea what you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/588 "2012-01-08T00:25:41Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Which works out quite well for people who actually can’t, like you. Nope. If I wasn’t having to pay so much in taxes to support all these programs, there is a good chance we could live on just my husband’s income. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/589 "2012-01-08T00:27:31Z")
As I said several posts ago; you’re dealing with the Curlinator. It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until this thread is dead. And it runs entirely on napkin sandwiches. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/590 "2012-01-08T00:30:16Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > As I said several posts ago; you’re dealing with the Curlinator. It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until this thread is dead. > > And it runs entirely on napkin sandwiches. Yeah, this must be where some posters get the “make shit up” disease, since none of that is true. How dare I not hold your views on life and society! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/591 "2012-01-08T00:34:37Z")
Napkin and _ketchup_ sandwiches. And the thread has been dead for at least the last couple of pages. Another one down, thanks to the curlinator. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/592 "2012-01-08T00:54:34Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Nope. If I wasn’t having to pay so much in taxes to support all these programs, there is a good chance we could live on just my husband’s income. And if you didn’t have a husband, what then? You do NOT take care of yourself. Apparently it takes both a man and a government to carry your worthless ass. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/593 "2012-01-08T01:41:54Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Nope. If I wasn’t having to pay so much in taxes to support all these programs, there is a good chance we could live on just my husband’s income. Now, as a test of basic empathy, imagine for whatever reason (say, you’re a crazy hateful bitch who DIDN’T actually manage to con some fool into supporting her) you didn’t HAVE that income. What now? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/594 "2012-01-08T05:31:03Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > You think it is a good idea to import workers with so many residents out of work? Well, consider the effects of a more serious (that is to say, a less laughable) effort to keep them out - higher prices. Your government checks won’t go quite so far. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/595 "2012-01-08T05:41:11Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Now, as a test of basic empathy, imagine for whatever reason (say, you’re a crazy hateful bitch who DIDN’T actually manage to con some fool into supporting her) you didn’t HAVE that income. What now? What income, my husband’s? If that’s what you mean, depends on what circumstances you want to make up. As in he loses his job? If he can’t get another one, we have savings and could stagger along until he is old enough to get retirement. If you mean as in I was never married to him, hard to say since you are talking almost 20 years so I really don’t know where I’d be. If you mean he divorces me and leaves me without income other than SSDI ( not gonna happen ), since I’m not a crazy hateful bitch I have friends I could live with. When I get to retirement age, I’d have two (smallish) pensions and an IRA for supplemental income. Not really sure what any of that has to do with anything tho. > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Well, consider the effects of a more serious (that is to say, a less laughable) effort to keep them out - higher prices. Your government checks won’t go quite so far. Doing the **nyx** sidestep, eh? Or are you seriously more concerned about expensive tomatoes than any of the other issues? ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/596 "2012-01-08T06:10:20Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I am collecting SSDI. However, it is such a small amount it in no way supports me. Of course, if you had a brain and a clue, you would know that. I take it that’s why you’re whining about what those of us who earn money choose to spend it on? Because we don’t pay you enough to do nothing? > [@](#): > > Real life fact: Just because someone isn’t getting a paycheck doesn’t mean they aren’t producing. Which ties in with my saying just because you would sit on your butt and be useless after you retire doesn’t mean everyone does. Right. But _you’re_ not producing. I’m not judging everyone who doesn’t earn a paycheck. I’m judging _you_, and I’m basing it on your own statements. > [@](#): > > At the expense of legal citizens. Any value they produce is greatly outweighed by the cost. No. If you were capable of understanding economics and actually studying up on this stuff, you’d know that these people are a net benefit to the rest of us. Unlike you. > [@](#): > > Ya know, you really need to go buy a clue, find someone who can show you how to use it and then in a year or so after it has sunk in, come on back. You have been wrong about pretty much everything, yet you continue to make those guesses and false assumptions. Either you are dumber than dirt, or you are trolling. I haven’t been wrong about a thing yet. I was right to guess you weren’t a productive citizen, for example. > [@](#): > > However I did work, for decades and during all that time the government made me pay into social security. Those are the benefits that I am now getting. No. If you were getting retirement income it would be the basis of what you’re getting paid now. You said you’re on disability. That’s not based on what you paid in. > [@](#): > > If you want to play that game, then you owe me money for helping to fund your 12 years of schooling plus whatever college you may have attended. Then when you have kids, you will owe me for helping to fund their schooling. Oh, believe me, I’ve already paid in way more taxes that the cost of my k-12 education (seriously, that doesn’t take many years at all) and certainly the publicly funded part of my higher education. Honestly, if you learned enough math to work these things out, maybe you’d be hirable. > [@](#): > > Well, that just proves once again that you have no idea what you are talking about, doesn’t it? I dunno, at least I haven’t tried to resort to arguing that I’m paying my way because taking and spending other people’s money somehow helps the economy. > [@](#): > > OK then, you tell me - what is the “allotted share”? How many years does someone have to work before you will allow them to collect? Or do you want to go by how much money they paid in? Well, if it were retirement, it would be based on how much you paid in. That’s the difference between disability and retirement, isn’t it? > [@](#): > > :rolleyes: God you are an asshole. At least I’m not being resentful that people who contribute to the economy, like undocumented immigrants, also benefit from the government programs I depend on. You know, the way you do. > [@](#): > > Honey, I worked for decades. I am well aware of how social security works, and I am _far_ more aware of how SSDI works than you. Don’t worry, I’m sure you have far more idea than I do how federal free money programs work. > [@](#): > > Yeah? What work do housewives do that I don’t? They maintain houses, instead of being paid not to work. > [@](#): > > You have no idea what you are talking about. Huh. I guess your opinions don’t really matter to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/597 "2012-01-08T06:31:52Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Doing the **nyx** sidestep, eh? Or are you seriously more concerned about expensive tomatoes than any of the other issues? It won’t just be tomatoes, of course, but agricultural products in general. [This USDA report](http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/aib790/aib790.pdf) (from 2004, I admit, but I don’t expect things have changed much) describes Americans spending: $41.1 billion: meat, poultry, fish $38.0 billion: bakery, cereal and grain products $30.6 billion: dairy, eggs and dairy/egg substitutes …further down: $17.1 billion: vegetables $16.8 billion: fruits Even _if_ illegal immigrant workers have the greatest impact on just those last two, and even _if_ the loss of their cheap labour leads to, say, a 15% rise in prices… that’s an extra $5.1 billion out of the pockets of hard-working (or government-check-cashing) Americans. Now, there are indeed costs to illegal immigration. The same year that report came out, [California alone coughed up some $10.5 billion](http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm) claims one source. A [more recent report](http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711/12-6-Immigration.pdf) (pdf file) by the Congressional Budget Office recognized the complexities of trying to answer the deceptively simple-sounding question of “Do illegal immigrants benefit the U.S. economy more or less than they cost it?”, though they phrased it as “The Challenges of Estimating an Aggregate Effect”. The upshot? The writers recognized the variability from state to state but “[a]lthough it is difficult to obtain precise estimates of the net impact of the unauthorized population on state and local budgets, that impact is most likely modest.” So, basically, I’m not sure _anyone_ knows the impact of illegal immigrants on the U.S. economy, so I’ve no reason to expect _you_ have any particular insight. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/598 "2012-01-08T06:54:14Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > \ See post #587 > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Even _if_ illegal immigrant workers have the greatest impact on just those last two, and even _if_ the loss of their cheap labour leads to, say, a 15% rise in prices… that’s an extra $5.1 billion out of the pockets of hard-working (or government-check-cashing) Americans. OK, then it is more important to you that your vegetables and fruits don’t rise in price. Apparently you just pulled the 15% out of your butt, but fine go with that. So much more important that you pay less than pickers aren’t treated like slaves. > [@](#): > > So, basically, I’m not sure _anyone_ knows the impact of illegal immigrants on the U.S. economy, so I’ve no reason to expect _you_ have any particular insight. That’s the whole problem - because they are illegal, it’s next to impossible to pin down exactly how much in social services they are using. I’d think it likely that any studies that you can find are just the tip of the iceberg. But even if their impact is “only” modest, that still adds up to a hell of a lot of money. $10.5 billion isn’t chump change. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/599 "2012-01-08T07:00:04Z")
Unfortunately, as this thread has revealed, society has fallen apart to the point that getting a job and earning your keep, rather than living on government largess, is now some “stupid liberal idea” rather than, you know, the normal thing people do. I guess mounting corporate welfare has created such an entitlement society that individual conservatives also think they should live off other people’s money rather than earning their own. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/600 "2012-01-08T08:20:16Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > OK, then it is more important to you that your vegetables and fruits don’t rise in price. Hey, they ain’t _my_ fruits and vegetables. What the U.S. does regarding its southern border is only of academic interest to me. > [@](#): > > Apparently you just pulled the 15% out of your butt, but fine go with that. So much more important that you pay less than pickers aren’t treated like slaves. Actually, I expect the 15% estimate to be rather low. Aren’t there a number of farming operations that can’t afford to pay minimum wage, that would shut down (or see their output greatly restricted) if they couldn’t hire illegals? Besides, now you’re acting all concerned about them not being treated like slaves? That’s mighty white of you, I must say, showing some concern for their well-being at this late date. These people don’t go to the U.S. to be slaves - they go because being underpaid in the U.S. is better than what they can get at home. > [@](#): > > That’s the whole problem - because they are illegal, it’s next to impossible to pin down exactly how much in social services they are using. I’d think it likely that any studies that you can find are just the tip of the iceberg. But even if their impact is “only” modest, that still adds up to a hell of a lot of money. $10.5 billion isn’t chump change. Well, here’s a wacky idea - make them legal. You don’t have to give them citizenship, some sort of work-visa system will suffice. At the very least, you’ll save the money wasted on law enforcement efforts to round up illegals who otherwise just want to work and get paid and mind their own business. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086.md?page=31)