# Stupid liberal idea of the day **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086 "2011-04-20T15:35:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 337
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6721 "2018-01-13T21:23:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Tort reform is one good thing about single payer, although it can go too far. Punitive damages exist for a reason, to prevent the medical profession from violating standards with impunity. Pure reimbursement of medical expenses is not a sufficient deterrent. > > Precisely because single payer has to include tort reform is why trial lawyers will side with conservatives to oppose it. At which point Democrats will pay them off, but that’s just another stupid liberal idea. wut Seriously, dude. That is some hardcore pretzel logic there. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6722 "2018-01-13T21:25:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > But single payer systems don’t do restitution, so there’s that too. Whut? Restitution is a function of a legal system, not a healthcare system. Pretty much everything you’ve posted about this case has been wrong, but here I think you’ve finally hit the coveted “Not Even Wrong” standard. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6723 "2018-01-13T21:30:46Z")
> [@andros](#): > > wut > > Seriously, dude. That is some hardcore pretzel logic there. That’s how health care negotiations have always gone. Obama paid off the drug companies and the insurance companies to get something passed. You can only imagine the deals that will be necessary to make single payer happen. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6724 "2018-01-13T21:32:05Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > Whut? Restitution is a function of a legal system, not a healthcare system. Pretty much everything you’ve posted about this case has been wrong, but here I think you’ve finally hit the coveted “Not Even Wrong” standard. Since the health care system there is part of the government, the government has rules strictly limiting what damages can be obtained from negligence or maliciousness of doctors. Every story I’ve ever read about NHS malpractice has been handled much as a complaint about an IRS agent or cop would be. People complain, there’s news stories, and in the end the victims don’t get much if anything and the perps don’t get punished. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6725 "2018-01-13T21:32:36Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > In the US I don’t think his continued practicing would even be a question, much less being sentenced to do his job We’ve already pointed out that he was not sentenced to do his job. He was sentenced to community service. Removing trash etc. And I’ve also pointed out that the medical board has not yet decided whether he will be allowed to continue practicing. > [@](#): > > And Britain’s doctor shortage is well documented. The US’s doctor shortages is also [well documented](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/doctor-shortage-us-impact-on-health/). ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6726 "2018-01-13T21:35:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Since the health care system there is part of the government, the government has rules strictly limiting what damages can be obtained from negligence or maliciousness of doctors. Every story I’ve ever read about NHS malpractice has been handled much as a complaint about an IRS agent or cop would be. People complain, there’s news stories, and in the end the victims don’t get much if anything and the perps don’t get punished. Care to share one of those stories? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6727 "2018-01-13T21:44:43Z")
> **[Kane Gorny inquest: Hospital neglect contributed to death](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-18814487)** > > Neglect by medical staff contributed to the death of a hospital patient who died from dehydration after calling 999 because he was so thirsty. > **[Culture of neglect that forced patient dying of thirst to call the police and...](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2172642/Kane-Gorny-Coroner-blames-incompetence-NHS-staff-patient-dies-dehydration.html)** > > Kane Gorny, 22, lost more than a third of his body fluid while recovering from a hip operation at St George’s Hospital in Tooting, southwest London, but was still denied a drink. One nurse got demoted. No one was fired or arrested. Of course, we had the same problem here, the VA has operated with similar impunity. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6728 "2018-01-13T21:48:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Tort reform is one good thing about single payer, although it can go too far. Punitive damages exist for a reason, to prevent the medical profession from violating standards with impunity. Pure reimbursement of medical expenses is not a sufficient deterrent. > > Precisely because single payer has to include tort reform is why trial lawyers will side with conservatives to oppose it. At which point Democrats will pay them off, but that’s just another stupid liberal idea. And what keeps them from suing for punitive damages? If someone is negligent or malicious, you may sue them. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6729 "2018-01-13T21:50:31Z")
Depends on how the tort laws work. Standards of evidence, limits on damages, etc. The US is so litigous in part because our awards are very generous. Most countries limit damages that aren’t strictly compensatory for monetary losses. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6730 "2018-01-13T22:17:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Depends on how the tort laws work. Standards of evidence, limits on damages, etc. The US is so litigous in part because our awards are very generous. Most countries limit damages that aren’t strictly compensatory for monetary losses. Our awards are not that generous. Sometimes, people get decent settlements, but it is pretty rare that it is actually more than an accounting error on the par of the offending company’s budget unless someone is dead, and even then, it is pretty rare to see payouts even in the million dollars. There are stories of people getting huge settlements, stories like the mcdonalds coffee payday, but those are just stories, and when you look at them, you realize that your assumption that we have such extravagant awards is not as supported as you would have liked. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6731 "2018-01-13T22:28:57Z")
A fair amount of the time, a jury (especially in places like Alabama) may award a ludicrous amount of money and that makes the news. But the judge usually dials them back a bit, and if not, the appeals process is likely to do so. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6732 "2018-01-13T22:31:24Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > A fair amount of the time, a jury (especially in places like Alabama) may award a ludicrous amount of money and that makes the news. But the judge usually dials them back a bit, and if not, the appeals process is likely to do so. Yeah, that’s why I was hoping he would bring up one of these cases, like the mcdonalds coffee, as evidence of generous awards. That way, when he was shown what the actual payout was, he would understand that he had no support to his argument. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6733 "2018-01-13T22:35:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > [Kane Gorny inquest: Hospital neglect contributed to death - BBC News](http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-18814487) > > [Kane Gorny: Coroner blames 'incompetence' of NHS staff after patient dies from dehydration | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2172642/Kane-Gorny-Coroner-blames-incompetence-NHS-staff-patient-dies-dehydration.html) > > One nurse got demoted. No one was fired or arrested. > > Of course, we had the same problem here, the VA has operated with similar impunity. We were speaking specifically about the claim that injured parties cannot seek damages from the NHS. Your cites don’t state whether or not the parents of the deceased sought damages. Perhaps they did, perhaps they didn’t. Contrary to your earlier claims, it is possible to sue the NHS for malpractice and negligence. There are several sites that outline UK citizens’ rights to do so. One is below. According to the Telegraph, the NHS paid out about 1.7 billion pounds in malpractice claims in 2016 and spent another 700,000 pounds on legal fees. The Telegraph reports that payouts have risen dramatically in recent years. > **[Get advice about health costs and services](https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/health/get-advice-about-health-services/)** > > Get advice about help with NHS health costs and services, including mental health. Also, where to complain about a health service and social care for older or vulnerable people. > **[Record NHS negligence payouts, fuelled by maternity blunders](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/13/record-nhs-negligence-payouts-fuelled-maternity-blunders/)** > > The NHS paid out more than £1bn in damages for medical negligence last year - a record high, fuelled by maternity blunders, official figures show. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6734 "2018-01-13T23:51:29Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > We were speaking specifically about the claim that injured parties cannot seek damages from the NHS. Your cites don’t state whether or not the parents of the deceased sought damages. Perhaps they did, perhaps they didn’t. > > Contrary to your earlier claims, it is possible to sue the NHS for malpractice and negligence. There are several sites that outline UK citizens’ rights to do so. One is below. According to the Telegraph, the NHS paid out about 1.7 billion pounds in malpractice claims in 2016 and spent another 700,000 pounds on legal fees. The Telegraph reports that payouts have risen dramatically in recent years. > > [Get advice about health costs and services - Citizens Advice](https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/health/nhs-and-social-care-complaints/complaining-about-the-nhs/taking-your-complaint-against-the-nhs-to-court/clinical-negligence-in-the-nhs-taking-legal-action/) > > [Record NHS negligence payouts, fuelled by maternity blunders](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/13/record-nhs-negligence-payouts-fuelled-maternity-blunders/) But it would have been a lot more in the US, which is A Good Thing!, except that it’s symptomatic of a trial-lawyer-driven, overly-litigious society which is A Bad Thing!, except for when it’s not. …or something like that. Still not really following the logic there. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6735 "2018-01-14T00:44:43Z")
> [@andros](#): > > But it would have been a lot more in the US, which is A Good Thing!, except that it’s symptomatic of a trial-lawyer-driven, overly-litigious society which is A Bad Thing!, except for when it’s not. > > …or something like that. Still not really following the logic there. Obviously his point is that medicine anywhere in the world other than the United States is no better than hensbane and eye of newt due to government interference… ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6736 "2018-01-14T02:40:12Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > How is that liberal? “Liveral”. It was a stupid “liveral” idea. He posted in the wrong thread. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6737 "2018-01-14T02:47:09Z")
> [@andros](#): > > But it would have been a lot more in the US, which is A Good Thing!, except that it’s symptomatic of a trial-lawyer-driven, overly-litigious society which is A Bad Thing!, except for when it’s not. > > …or something like that. Still not really following the logic there. If the government is providing health care, citizens should be able to sue the government into near bankruptcy to keep it honest. And that should be the case in general. “You want your Social Security check? Make sure federal agents don’t wrongfully murder anyone.” ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6738 "2018-01-14T03:15:12Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > … citizens should be able to sue the government into near bankruptcy to keep it honest … Sorry, this just sound psychotic to me. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6739 "2018-01-14T03:29:51Z")
Why? We have that philosphy with individuals and corporations. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/6740 "2018-01-14T03:30:21Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Sorry, this just sound psychotic to me. It’s the **Stupid Republican Idea** that if they bankrupt the country, it can’t afford all those welfare and social programs. This is why they don’t care about the deficit when they run the country. It’s called “Starve the Beast” and is part of the overall Republican hatred for any form of government that actually accomplishes anything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086.md?page=336) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086.md?page=338)