# Stupid liberal idea of the day **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086 "2011-04-20T15:35:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/721 "2012-07-19T14:33:48Z")
Speaking of facts, one of my friends was getting in a verbal tussle with some stupid right wing group on facebook and in the middle of the discussion, one of the RW morons posts just, “FACT: TWIN TOWERS” I almost died; I was laughing so much. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/722 "2012-07-19T14:53:26Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > You mean the capitalist system that had to be regulated to not make employees work more than 40 hours a week without just compensation? That, before then, had no problems with 12 hour work days in sweatshops? And even now still tries to push the bullshit that if a salaried and thus exempt employee _really cared_ about their job they should put in 50-60 hour weeks? > > Yeah, capitalism’s all about leisure time. Leisure time is a byproduct of increased productivity and the division of labor. There was already a trend toward the 8 hour work day before unions used it as a rallying cry. If a salary employee is unhappy with her pay, she should negotiate for a higher paycheck with her employer. She will always have the option of leaving. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/723 "2012-07-19T14:58:30Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Yet oddly I don’t have to pay a toll every time I leave my cul-de-sac. Can you explain the business plan for the wonderful capitalist who built the road outside my house without any support from the government? If America had never adopted a capitalist system there would be no tax revenue to build your road. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/724 "2012-07-19T15:05:08Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You’re really not smart enough to engage fully here. Maybe you should go to the Hannity forums where people won’t judge you poorly for being slow? ‘’ Interesting assertion. You know there is a way to prove your claim. That is, y’know, forming an argument and letting me respond. I’ve never seen you actually engage in debate. You are just another stump, shouldn’t you be on the Ed Show or something? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/725 "2012-07-19T15:16:11Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If America had never adopted a capitalist system there would be no tax revenue to build your road. I don’t actually see anyone here arguing against a capitalism system, just arguing in favor of tax revenue, which as you admit was required to build the roads. Top marginal tax rates of 92% in the 50’s didn’t eliminate capitalism, so I don’t think that going back to the 90’s rate of 39.6% is going to collapse capitalism either. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/726 "2012-07-19T15:16:24Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Or the thread title: > > “Stupid li…e… of the day” > > In the same way [anarchism and Marxism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_Association) are the results of capitalism. > > [Anyway, yeah](http://mises.org/books/socialism/part5_ch34.aspx). > > Also, it’s funny to note that Mises calls himself a liberal and advocates a liberal philosophy at several times in the book (defined as opposition to war qua war, market protectionism and unenlightened monarchism), while denigrating Locke for forwarding a labour theory of value. I seriously do not know how to take this post. On one hand you call me liar. On the other you link to Mises where he backs up my claim. > [@](#): > > Working hours lessened because the more intensive labour of the efficient worker made possible a better exploitation of the machinery than could be achived with the sluggish and unskilled work of inferior labour ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/727 "2012-07-19T15:22:34Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I don’t actually see anyone here arguing against a capitalism system, just arguing in favor of tax revenue, which as you admit was required to build the roads. Top marginal tax rates of 92% in the 50’s didn’t eliminate capitalism, so I don’t think that going back to the 90’s rate of 39.6% is going to collapse capitalism either. I never said it would collapse capitalism. It won’t help it though. I was responding to a poster who said roads, leisure time, and economy exist because of government. I don’t admit taxes were \*required \*to build the roads, I admit that they \*were \*used to build the roads. A purely capitalist road system would be more efficient, but that’s not the route we have taken. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/728 "2012-07-19T15:25:35Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If America had never adopted a capitalist system there would be no tax revenue to build your road. Breathtaking bullshit, or breathtaking ignorance. Were the ancient Romans capitalists? Are there no roads in China? Practically every country and empire in history built roads, and only a tiny minority of them could be described as capitalist. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/729 "2012-07-19T15:53:57Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > ‘’ > Interesting assertion. You know there is a way to prove your claim. That is, y’know, forming an argument and letting me respond. I’ve never seen you actually engage in debate. You are just another stump, shouldn’t you be on the Ed Show or something? I debate all the time. You’re the one baldly asserting that _capitalism is magic_. Your contribution to this thread is > [@](#): > > Roads, economy(!), and leisure time are the result of capitalism. Not the bullshit brand of progressivism you advocate. And that’s asinine. Progressivism is why you have a 40 hour work week. It’s why your wife gets maternity leave. It’s why frothing know-nothings like Clothy can forge the feet of our youngsters into deadly weapons. So, I’ve already stated that anyone with a business needs the infrastructure and social systems put in place by the government and society in general. As a cite, I can provide a list of first world countries. As an example of the effects of not having such a system, I can point to the thriving libertarian dream of Somalia. Of course the work of the business creator is vital. Of course it matters. But he isn’t working alone. You can’t grow an apple-tree in on a rock. It needs good earth to take hold. And the systems put in place by the government are that earth. I appreciate that you want to live in a country with the freedom for corporate domination (and possibly roving rape-bands). But what you don’t realize is that people who post on message boards don’t do very well in anarchy. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/730 "2012-07-19T15:54:33Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Breathtaking bullshit, or breathtaking ignorance. Were the ancient Romans capitalists? Are there no roads in China? Practically every country and empire in history built roads, and only a tiny minority of them could be described as capitalist. They built “your roads”? The infrastructure of the US is due to capitalism and taxes. Who was discussing the Incan Empire? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/731 "2012-07-19T15:56:12Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I never said it would collapse capitalism. It won’t help it though. I was responding to a poster who said roads, leisure time, and economy exist because of government. > > I don’t admit taxes were \*required \*to build the roads, I admit that they \*were \*used to build the roads. A purely capitalist road system would be more efficient, but that’s not the route we have taken. A capitalist road system would not be more efficient. The poor would have no mobility and there wouldn’t be roads to smaller areas. You are blindly and without thought parroting Libertarian liturgy. You aren’t thinking. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/732 "2012-07-19T16:10:05Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Your contribution to this thread is And that’s asinine. Progressivism is why you have a 40 hour work week. It’s why your wife gets maternity leave. It’s why frothing know-nothings like Clothy can forge the feet of our youngsters into deadly weapons. The 40 hour week is due to increases in productivity as an earlier poster was able to prove in his cite of Mises. > [@](#): > > So, I’ve already stated that anyone with a business needs the infrastructure and social systems put in place by the government and society in general. As a cite, I can provide a list of first world countries. These countries were blessed with natural resources and a government able to enforce property rights. I’m not an anarchist. I admit government has a role in prosperous societies. > [@](#): > > As an example of the effects of not having such a system, I can point to the thriving libertarian dream of Somalia. How is the government of Somalia able to enforce property rights and ensure individual liberties? > [@](#): > > Of course the work of the business creator is vital. Of course it matters. But he isn’t working alone. You can’t grow an apple-tree in on a rock. It needs good earth to take hold. And the systems put in place by the government are that earth. Earth picks no favorites. It doesn’t aid one particular group at the expense of another. It simply is. Government is not Earth. That is a vicious religion you are preaching. > [@](#): > > I appreciate that you want to live in a country with the freedom for corporate domination (and possibly roving rape-bands). But what you don’t realize is that people who post on message boards don’t do very well in anarchy. 😃 “Corporate domination” never existed and could never exist in a libertarian (minarchist) society. You’re afraid of something that has never happened. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/733 "2012-07-19T16:10:42Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > They built “your roads”? The infrastructure of the US is due to capitalism and taxes. Taxes imposed by the government and used to build roads planned by the government and built by the government. Eisenhower was a goddamn progressive, donchaknow. And socialist and communist countries have roads too. Countries without governments, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/734 "2012-07-19T16:11:12Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > She will always have the option of leaving. Of course she does. And all it’ll take is for every employee in the nation to go work at the 2% of companies that don’t ask for 50+ hour weeks for the others to change their ways. Fucking idealists. > [@Lobohan](#): > > A capitalist road system would not be more efficient. Nonsense! Stopping every 2 miles to pay the toll to get onto a new company’s road is very efficient! The money goes directly into their pockets instead of being filtered through taxes, after all. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/735 "2012-07-19T16:16:53Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > A capitalist road system would not be more efficient. > > The poor would have no mobility and there wouldn’t be roads to smaller areas. You are blindly and without thought parroting Libertarian liturgy. You aren’t thinking. If there were no roads to “smaller areas” people simply would not live there. Why should someone who lives in a “larger area” pay for the transportation of someone who chooses to live far away? If there is a benefit to living far away let that person pay for it. The poor would live and work in a “large area”. They would have the option of saving to move to a “small area” or using their money on something else they value more highly. You are acting like humans sprang up in Gary, Indiana at the same time they evolved in Ethiopia and government had to intervene so that everyone would be connected by marvelous government roads. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/736 "2012-07-19T16:21:22Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > They built “your roads”? The infrastructure of the US is due to capitalism and taxes. Who was discussing the Incan Empire? No. It is due to revenue of some kind. I am not arguing that capitalism is bad, but it is in no way necessary to build roads or infrastructure and it never has been. Roads and infrastructure got built long before the concept of capitalism ever existed. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/737 "2012-07-19T16:21:49Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Of course she does. And all it’ll take is for every employee in the nation to go work at the 2% of companies that don’t ask for 50+ hour weeks for the others to change their ways. If she is in a position where the pay is not worth 50 hours a week there are other jobs that demand less. There is a reason the employer wants 50 hours out of her. It’s because the pay she is recieving is worth more than 40 hours. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/738 "2012-07-19T16:33:27Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > No. It is due to revenue of some kind. I am not arguing that capitalism is bad, but it is in no way necessary to build roads or infrastructure and it never has been. Roads and infrastructure got built long before the concept of capitalism ever existed. I am well aware roads existed before capitalism. I am saying capitalism provided the prosperity needed for making American infrastructure what it is. As an aside, I am saying capitalist road systems would be more efficient as [capitalist railroads](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Northern_Railway_(U.S.)) were more efficient in the US. > [@](#): > > The Great Northern was the only privately funded, and successfully built, transcontinental railroad in United States history. No federal land grants were used during its construction, unlike every other transcontinental railroad built. It was one of the few transcontinental railroads to avoid receivership following the Panic of 1893. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/739 "2012-07-19T16:34:51Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If there were no roads to “smaller areas” people simply would not live there. Why should someone who lives in a “larger area” pay for the transportation of someone who chooses to live far away? If there is a benefit to living far away let that person pay for it. That “smaller area” you dismiss encompasses the land of every animal, fruit and vegetable farmer of America. Canned foods can last you a good 4 years so I’d probably start stocking up now before the supermarket riots. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/740 "2012-07-19T16:37:52Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If there were no roads to “smaller areas” people simply would not live there. Why should someone who lives in a “larger area” pay for the transportation of someone who chooses to live far away? If there is a benefit to living far away let that person pay for it. Because it is best for the country at large if you can deliver a package anywhere in the country. > [@](#): > > The poor would live and work in a “large area”. They would have the option of saving to move to a “small area” or using their money on something else they value more highly. What would happen is that cities would only exist where businesses needed them, because businesses would build the roads. You would have huge swaths of the country unsettled and places still connected via dirt roads. Company (pay) roads is nonsense. People would be incentivized to grow old and die in the town they grew up in. That’s not a good thing. And it’s hardly efficient. > [@](#): > > You are acting like humans sprang up in Gary, Indiana at the same time they evolved in Ethiopia and government had to intervene so that everyone would be connected by marvelous government roads. Government roads are good because they allowed us to take advantage of the size of this country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086.md?page=38)