# Stupid liberal idea of the day **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086 "2011-04-20T15:35:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 82
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1621 "2014-04-02T15:44:30Z")
I get what she was aiming at, but she did phrase it pretty stupidly. And if I never again had to hear someone opine on what the Founding Fathers believed or wanted (all of them, of course, since they were infallible men who were in total agreement at all times), I’d die a slightly happier man. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1622 "2014-04-02T16:09:26Z")
Wow, that was really pathetic to call that an “stupid liberal idea” **Clothahump**. As I pointed before, the previous system with mostly your job giving you health insurance was a system only a feudal lord would be proud of, the ACA is a good way to prevent job lock and indeed make Americans be more free and more willing to start businesses on their own. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1623 "2014-04-02T16:13:08Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I get what she was aiming at, but she did phrase it pretty stupidly. > > And if I never again had to hear someone opine on what the Founding Fathers believed or wanted (all of them, of course, since they were infallible men who were in total agreement at all times), I’d die a slightly happier man. Completely agree. The constant asinine references to the founders (i refuse to say Founding Fathers; it sounds fucking ridiculous) by politicians and talking heads drives me crazy. The men of the Revolutionary era are, somewhat paradoxically, both highly over-rated and highly under-rated in American political culture. They’re over-rated because they’re trotted out as justifications for every self-interested claim, often with little or no consideration of the complexity of their ideas or the historical context of their political activities. And they’re under-rated because some of their most complex and interesting ideas and actions are ignored in favor of rhetorical bullshit. How many of these chumps who trot out the “Founding Fathers” have ever really read and understood the Federalist papers, or the writings of the anti-Federalists? How many of them are familiar with Notes on the State of Virginia? How many are familiar with the political philosophy of George Washington’s Sixth Annual Message, in the wake of the Whiskey Rebellion, or of his Farewell Address, dealing with the problems of faction? They should just shut the fuck up about them. And **silenus** , i get your point about promoting the general welfare. I’m a supporter of Obamacare, i think it does promote the general welfare, and my main complaint is that it didn’t go far enough. I would have far preferred a social-democratic single-payer system. But come on, how many of the signers of the Declaration, and how many of those who met in Philadelphia to draft the Constitution, really would have supported the idea of government-mandated health coverage? These folks had a very different conception of what the welfare of the nation was, and how it might best be promoted, than we do. Hell, even in the immediate aftermath of the ratification of the Constitution, they couldn’t agree among themselves about whether America should be a nation of yeoman farmers with a weak federal government, or a tariff-protected manufacturing center with a strong federal government. None of this is to suggest that we need follow their lead. Quite the opposite. Much as i respect Thomas Jefferson’s intellect, i don’t hold his low opinion of cities, and i don’t believe that the strength and the virtue of a nation is primarily to be found among independent farmers working their own land. But we need to be careful about making stupid, simplistic invocations of the founders in order to score rhetorical points in a modern political debate. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1624 "2014-04-02T16:13:25Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I get what she was aiming at, but she did phrase it pretty stupidly. Awkwardly, certainly, but not stupidly. She had a very valid point - that ACA advances the principles of life, liberty, and the purfuit of happineff. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1625 "2014-04-02T16:16:08Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > …But come on, how many of the signers of the Declaration, and how many of those who met in Philadelphia to draft the Constitution, really would have supported the idea of government-mandated health coverage?.. Not needed. Leeches and mud were freely available, without prescription. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1626 "2014-04-02T16:55:24Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But come on, how many of the signers of the Declaration, and how many of those who met in Philadelphia to draft the Constitution, really would have supported the idea of government-mandated health coverage? These folks had a very different conception of what the welfare of the nation was, and how it might best be promoted, than we do. “Remarkable! In your future age, there exists a universal system of physic for all white male landowners!” “Yeah… uh, about that…” ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1627 "2014-04-02T18:42:49Z")
I’m skimming this at work so pardon if it has been mentioned. From: [PolitiFact | Harvard Law professor says early Congress mandated health insurance for seamen and gun ownership for most men](http://www.politifact.com/rhode-island/statements/2012/jan/13/einer-elhauge/harvard-law-professor-says-early-congress-mandated/) > [@poltifact](#): > > Harvard Law professor says early Congress mandated health insurance for seamen and gun ownership for most men Mostly True. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1628 "2014-04-02T19:25:41Z")
Well, as I understand the Founders actually were pretty ok with a sizeable portion of the population to be job-locked. Job-padlocked, even. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1629 "2014-04-02T19:26:09Z")
[Fuller WaPo article on that.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/06/26/george-washingtons-individual-mandates/) ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1630 "2014-04-02T19:40:30Z")
Somebody email **Humpy** that article, then stand back. His head might explode. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1631 "2014-04-02T20:54:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **Humpy** , do you ever even fucking \*read \*what you cite? Every time. Do you? Did you even bother to read this statement that she made, speaking of what the founding fathers wanted: > [@](#): > > “life — a healthier life — liberty and the freedom to pursue their happiness, not [be] job-locked, **but having benefits that having health-care policies that are portable.** Do you agree with her that Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin et al. wanted portable health care policies? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1632 "2014-04-02T21:00:15Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Ever heard the phrase “promote the general welfare,” dipshit? You are living proof you can’t fix stupid. Now it’s just embarrassing. I heard that phrase many, many times - always from ignorant liberals who think the federal government should provide welfare to everyone. Have you even bothered to read anything that the founding fathers wrote? Ever? I’m assuming you haven’t, or you would have known that the founding fathers never even considered that “promote the general welfare” meant writing welfare checks of any kind. Madison said it best: > [@](#): > > “I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.” But that’s all right, **Silenus.** Rant and rave on, bro, because every time you post an ad hominem response to me, you’re simply admitting that I was right; it pisses you off; and you have nothing left to do but call me names because you can’t refute what I said. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1633 "2014-04-02T21:01:36Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Wow, that was really pathetic to call that an “stupid liberal idea” **Clothahump**. > > As I pointed before, the previous system with mostly your job giving you health insurance was a system only a feudal lord would be proud of, the ACA is a good way to prevent job lock and indeed make Americans be more free and more willing to start businesses on their own. ROTFLMAO!!! That was friggin’ hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1634 "2014-04-02T21:04:25Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Somebody email **Humpy** that article, then stand back. His head might explode. No, but I’m in serious danger of busting a gut laughing at all of you. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1635 "2014-04-02T21:15:19Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Have you even bothered to read anything that the founding fathers wrote? Ever? I’m assuming you haven’t, or you would have known that the founding fathers never even considered that “promote the general welfare” meant writing welfare checks of any kind. Madison said it best: > > > [@](#): > > > > “I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.” Madison didn’t write that. It is from the _Annals of Congress_, House of Representatives, 3rd Congress, 1st Session, [page 170.](http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llac&fileName=004/llac004.db&recNum=82)The \*Annals \*summarize speeches in the third person, and as such do not represent direct quotes. Swing and a miss. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1636 "2014-04-02T21:26:41Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > No, but I’m in serious danger of busting a gut laughing at all of you. I hope your insurance will cover that. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1637 "2014-04-02T22:22:36Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Do you agree with her that Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin et al. wanted portable health care policies? Not as badly as they wanted semi-automatic firearms with high-capacity magazines in every tavern, church and grammar school, I’ll admit. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1638 "2014-04-02T23:56:06Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > ROTFLMAO!!! That was friggin’ hilarious. Yeah, too funny. [http://www.stlamerican.com/business/local\_business/article\_7b802564-f49c-11e2-b3fc-001a4bcf887a.html](http://www.stlamerican.com/business/local_business/article_7b802564-f49c-11e2-b3fc-001a4bcf887a.html) > [@](#): > > By Patricia Brown-Dixon, U.S. Small Business Administration > > There are currently 23 million self-employed entrepreneurs in the United States, and that number continues to rise. In Missouri alone, more than 358,209 self-employed firms are contributing to our economy’s growth and success. These innovative entrepreneurs reflect a diverse array of professions and businesses that are helping to drive our economy, from consultants and IT specialists to painters and roofers. > > As the number of self-employed individuals continues to grow, thanks to technology that allows more geographic flexibility and baby boomers looking to open their own firms, one key concern for entrepreneurs looking to go into business for themselves has historically remained unaddressed: health care. But the Affordable Care Act is offering exciting new options for health coverage for the self-employed. > > We know that increased access to quality, affordable health care will make it easier for potential entrepreneurs to go out on their own instead of staying at larger firms simply because of "job lock” or the lack of access to affordable insurance outside of work. In fact, one recent study by the Urban Institute estimated that by making health insurance more affordable and ending discrimination against pre-existing conditions, the law will enable an additional 1.5 million Americans to go into business for themselves. > [@](#): > > For many self-employed entrepreneurs, health coverage is a key factor in deciding whether to venture out on their own and transform an idea into a business. For the first time ever, the Affordable Care Act is giving America’s innovators a way out of “job lock” by providing access to quality, affordable health insurance to help offer peace of mind to entrepreneurs while they turn their minds to helping the economy grow and thrive. And in a country built on the spirit of entrepreneurship, this is good news for us all. Either your mind has turned silly thanks to all the right wing propaganda that you are swallowing, or it was thanks to many boots to the head from your Karate class. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1639 "2014-04-03T01:11:09Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But come on, how many of the signers of the Declaration, and how many of those who met in Philadelphia to draft the Constitution, really would have supported the idea of government-mandated health coverage? None of them; but Thomas Paine would have. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/1640 "2014-04-03T01:13:18Z")
Clothy, you’re delusional. Honestly, the things you believe are simply not true. You’re twisted in anger and hate because you believe things are happening that simply aren’t. It’s pathetic. You deserve to have a better life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086.md?page=81) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086.md?page=83)