# Stupid neighbor heathen children. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 14, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452 "2009-03-14T21:41:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![SomeUserName](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e480ec/32.png) [@SomeUserName](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SomeUserName)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/101 "2009-03-18T23:00:21Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > I don’t defend it, but it’s a rather more universal practice to smash pumpkins on Halloween than to stomp on a flowerbed on any given day. I would not be so sure anymore. People are more protective and less forgiving then they were ten or twenty years ago. The whole point is that children need to be held accountable for their actions. Let the property owner decide if “this is just something kids do” and not make it a “universal practice” for all. If I thought it was okay I would never have went to their house and complained. I am not a tight ass bitch. I have two kids, 20 and 18. I not only raised them but I have had many of their friends over in those years and they knew what I expected of them. I was fairly leanant and tried to be fair but kids can be irresponsible and it is up to the parents or the people that are responsible for them to make sure they own up to those mistakes. If they don’t then they are not going to learn that what they did was wrong. Even if YOU don’t think is wrong it may be wrong in someone else eyes. It was their property after all. More times than not a simple apology and a promise to never do it again goes a long way. Later when they have grown up a bit we can all remember back when, laugh and can admit “Hey, I did it as a kid too”. I have had many good times talking to my kids and remembering back to some stuff they pulled but they are grown now. I certainly would not have had slapped them on the back ten years ago and said “HAHA that was funny when you smashed Mr. Johnsons pumpkin last night”. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/102 "2009-03-19T15:21:17Z")
> [@SomeUserName](#): > > I would not be so sure anymore. People are more protective and less forgiving then they were ten or twenty years ago. > > The whole point is that children need to be held accountable for their actions. > > Let the property owner decide if “this is just something kids do” and not make it a “universal practice” for all. If I thought it was okay I would never have went to their house and complained. > > I am not a tight ass bitch. I have two kids, 20 and 18. I not only raised them but I have had many of their friends over in those years and they knew what I expected of them. I was fairly leanant and tried to be fair but kids can be irresponsible and it is up to the parents or the people that are responsible for them to make sure they own up to those mistakes. If they don’t then they are not going to learn that what they did was wrong. > > Even if YOU don’t think is wrong it may be wrong in someone else eyes. It was their property after all. > > More times than not a simple apology and a promise to never do it again goes a long way. > > Later when they have grown up a bit we can all remember back when, laugh and can admit “Hey, I did it as a kid too”. I have had many good times talking to my kids and remembering back to some stuff they pulled but they are grown now. I certainly would not have had slapped them on the back ten years ago and said “HAHA that was funny when you smashed Mr. Johnsons pumpkin last night”. Smashing pumpkins (heh band name … really) was always transgressive. It was never considered “okay” by parents, and if you got caught at it you would certainly be in trouble. That was part of the point. The notion that the kids would ASK IN ADVANCE whether or not it was okay to smash pumpkins defies reality, however. The whole point of such an act is to engage in a bit of naughty defiance against “the authorities” - parents, school, everyone who teaches kids what to do and to be disciplined, accountable and mature persons. The point is that the “defiance” was limited in scope. It was “defiance”, sure, but within the context of tradition. It was, if you like, a more or less “safe” defiance. A kid could do it and then go back to obedience the next day. Some kids of course act out in ways that are not within the context of tradition and are less easy to overlook … but the vast majority go on to become responsible adults. The sort, in fact, to own houses, carve pumpkins of their own and to curse the rowdy undisciplined neighbourhood hoodlum kids who smash _their_ pumpkins. 😃 It isn’t “people” who have changed - it is us. We grew up. “We” are now “they” and have forgotten the sort of confused punk-ass kids at least some of us used to be. We think the world has changed and kids aren’t what they used to be … a refrain that is _surely_ as old as human history. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/103 "2009-03-19T15:43:35Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The point is that the “defiance” was limited in scope. It was “defiance”, sure, but within the context of tradition. It was, if you like, a more or less “safe” defiance. A kid could do it and then go back to obedience the next day. That was the point I was trying to make, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/104 "2009-03-19T20:25:04Z")
[QUOTE=Tahssa] So they called the guy and told him I was there requesting that he move his stuff back to his side and so he finally did. I went back to my place and back around to the garage to find him moving his stuff over and he was annoyed at me because the office had been calling him several times a day asking him to move his stuff. I told him if he would just keep his stuff on his side then I would not be annoying the office and thus they would not be annoying him. [/QUOTE] Probably the best action, but the alternative would be to tell him to remove his stuff, and if he doesn’t, hide the things he leaves on your side and when he asks about them tell him they were on your side, you assumed he was giving them to you so you got rid of the things you didn’t want. [QUOTE=Malthu] Smashing pumpkins (heh band name … really) was always transgressive. It was never considered “okay” by parents, and if you got caught at it you would certainly be in trouble. That was part of the point. The notion that the kids would ASK IN ADVANCE whether or not it was okay to smash pumpkins defies reality, however. The whole point of such an act is to engage in a bit of naughty defiance against “the authorities” - parents, school, everyone who teaches kids what to do and to be disciplined, accountable and mature persons. [/quote] I don’t think anyone has suggested asking in advance. Rather, that the property owner has the right to react as he/she sees fit, including getting angry and going to the parents and complaining. > [@](#): > > The point is that the “defiance” was limited in scope. It was “defiance”, sure, but within the context of tradition. It was, if you like, a more or less “safe” defiance. A kid could do it and then go back to obedience the next day. Some kids of course act out in ways that are not within the context of tradition and are less easy to overlook … but the vast majority go on to become responsible adults. The sort, in fact, to own houses, carve pumpkins of their own and to curse the rowdy undisciplined neighbourhood hoodlum kids who smash _their_ pumpkins. But if it is defiance, then it is entirely proper for them to get in trouble for actions. It’s called consequences. Sure, it’s “safe” defiance, in that it is a lot less harmful than setting the dog on fire (to use someone else’s example), but it is still a violation of property and it is still wrong and it still deserves punishment. Like grounding the kid, or taking away his Nintendo, or making him go over and apologize and rake the leaves in the neighbor’s yard as penance. It’s okay for parents later to reminisce with their children what little snots they were when they were little, but at the time you can’t blow it off as “kids will be kids”, you punish them for the little violations, so they learn about right and wrong. So the reason is “It’s Halloween”. and the response is “it’s still wrong”. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/105 "2009-03-19T20:51:20Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I don’t think anyone has suggested asking in advance. Rather, that the property owner has the right to react as he/she sees fit, including getting angry and going to the parents and complaining. I’m not saying that people have no right to complain. I’m pointing out that this anger - the “kids these days” reaction - is hardly some new thing. > [@](#): > > But if it is defiance, then it is entirely proper for them to get in trouble for actions. It’s called consequences. Sure, it’s “safe” defiance, in that it is a lot less harmful than setting the dog on fire (to use someone else’s example), but it is still a violation of property and it is still wrong and it still deserves punishment. Like grounding the kid, or taking away his Nintendo, or making him go over and apologize and rake the leaves in the neighbor’s yard as penance. It’s okay for parents later to reminisce with their children what little snots they were when they were little, but at the time you can’t blow it off as “kids will be kids”, you punish them for the little violations, so they learn about right and wrong. > > So the reason is “It’s Halloween”. and the response is “it’s still wrong”. I think you are missing my point. I would fully agree with all of that. These kids are not here in this thread and posting - my reactions are to the posters posting _here and now_. It is certainly appropriate to punish kids for defiance - indeed, defiance would be pointless, would not **be** defiance, if it were not for the possibility of punishment. However, it is one thing to punish - that’s just a parent’s duty - and another to adopt the sort of attitude you see on display in this thread (and more generally on many threads on this site) - the level of real hatred I see that, jokes and all, seems so totally disproportionate and downright sad. Like some people have forgotten that they were once kids. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/106 "2009-03-19T20:51:57Z")
> [@Tahssa](#): > > Sorry this ended up way longer that I inteded. > > Short version: Annoy the hell out of the condo board until they actually do something. > > Long version: > I had to share a double garage with another tennet when I had a condo and he would routinely put a bunch of crap on my side so that I couldn’t park in my side of the garage. His side was packed back to front and floor to ceiling with stuff and he would go in there to get something and have to move a bunch of stuff out of his way and into my side but then not move the stuff back. > > I asked him to remove his stuff everytime he did so but he would do it again several weeks to a month later. > > After 6 months I called the condo association and they said they would talk to him and after a couple of days he moved his stuff. A couple of weeks later he did it again so I called the assocaition again and they said they would talk to him and he finally did a couple of days later. > > A month later the same thing happened except this time I called the office the first thing the next morning. Then I called again about fours later while I was at work and asked if he had removed his stuff. Then I called again right before I was about to leave work to see if he had removed his stuff. When I got home his stuff was still there so I called again saying his stuff was still there. > > At this point they were getting pissed at me which I felt was a good thing because then they might actually do something. > > Well the next morning his stuff was still there so I called them again and they said very sternly that they will take care of it and there is no need to call again and I told them that as long as his stuff is in my space I will be calling them. I called them again while I was at work but they did not answer. So when I got home and saw that his stuff was still in my spot I walked to the office and asked them why they have not done anything and they were really annoyed at this point and said they had asked the guy to move his stuff. I told them the stuff was still there and that I would wait in the office until they told the guy to move his stuff asap. > > So they called the guy and told him I was there requesting that he move his stuff back to his side and so he finally did. I went back to my place and back around to the garage to find him moving his stuff over and he was annoyed at me because the office had been calling him several times a day asking him to move his stuff. I told him if he would just keep his stuff on his side then I would not be annoying the office and thus they would not be annoying him. > > Thankfully he moved about 4 months later and the new garage neighbors were nice people. I would’ve just moved the stuff out to the curb where the trash pickup is. That would’ve taught him the lesson right quick. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/107 "2009-03-19T21:24:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I suggest talking to the older kid alone. Tell him that you view him as the man of the house, and as someone who has control over his younger siblings. Then let him know, in no uncertain terms, that you are going to hold HIM responsible for ANY damage caused by any of the heathens. Of course, you’ll have to leave it vague, but make it so the physical threat link is created in his head. If he does a good job, find some way to reward him. > > Good luck. And if he doesn’t WHACK him 😃 I like the poison ivy idea. It’s not obvious, they won’t know what it was until it’s already got them, and there is plausible deniability. ---
**Author:** ![SomeUserName](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e480ec/32.png) [@SomeUserName](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SomeUserName)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/108 "2009-03-20T00:46:07Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Smashing pumpkins (heh band name … really) was always transgressive. It was never considered “okay” by parents, and if you got caught at it you would certainly be in trouble. That was part of the point. > > The notion that the kids would ASK IN ADVANCE whether or not it was okay to smash pumpkins defies reality, however. The whole point of such an act is to engage in a bit of naughty defiance against “the authorities” - parents, school, everyone who teaches kids what to do and to be disciplined, accountable and mature persons. > > The point is that the “defiance” was limited in scope. It was “defiance”, sure, but within the context of tradition. It was, if you like, a more or less “safe” defiance. A kid could do it and then go back to obedience the next day. Some kids of course act out in ways that are not within the context of tradition and are less easy to overlook … but the vast majority go on to become responsible adults. The sort, in fact, to own houses, carve pumpkins of their own and to curse the rowdy undisciplined neighbourhood hoodlum kids who smash _their_ pumpkins. 😃 > > It isn’t “people” who have changed - it is us. We grew up. “We” are now “they” and have forgotten the sort of confused punk-ass kids at least some of us used to be. We think the world has changed and kids aren’t what they used to be … a refrain that is _surely_ as old as human history. I agree with your post on a whole but as I stated the “heathen” was known for other activities that are beyond the scope of “defiance”. I don’t think breaking windows in houses and cars is “tradition”. The fact that his guardian aka grandma never made him own up creates a situation past obedience the next day. They blew it off like it was nothing. He did not get in trouble and was not confronted with it. I agree that kids get into shit and more times than not they later become fine adults BUT some do not and it is the responsibilty of the parents or guardians to do everything they can to prevent that, especially for kids that are on the edge. Can every kid be saved? I really wish that was the case. Sometimes all the love, support and discipline in the world won’t save a child from doing wrong but more parents should try and not fall back on the “I don’t have time” Or “whatEVER, I did that when I was ten too” stick. I have seen the kids friends get a two day grounding for a broken plate but a blow off on stolen money. WTF? A broken plate is an accident or I would think it was but stolen money is not. Its like parents have a warped sense of what it right and wrong verses what is a burden to their own personal time. The plate made them get off of their asses for a minute to clean it up, so that required a punishment, but the money was, well just gone, so no use crying over it. Go figure? I was a kid once and did wrong. My kids did wrong. We all did wrong. None of us were perfect angels but I challenge anyone to think of a time they were not ashamed by something we did in life as a kid or hell as an adult. The fact is we learned not to do it again because at at least ONE time in our life a parent or grandparent or uncle, aunt, teacher, boss etc. made us see or feel that we did something wrong. If not then maybe your own conscience got to you. Sometimes it may not always be in words but actions. The “single parent so they get a pass” thing has way to much wiggle room for my taste and I was one. Is it hard? Fuck yes it is. Do some kids get less supervision, you bet. That does not give them a pass when it comes to being a responsible parent. It may get you more compassion and understanding but it should not be a “get out of watching your kids card”. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/109 "2009-03-20T13:18:41Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Like some people have forgotten that they were once kids. I think some people remember they were once **good** kids and have little tolerance for the bad ones. I think it is the frustration of not being able to effectively do anything to stop their destructive actions. The parent won’t parent, the condo association can’t, or won’t, do anything. The cops would probably laugh at you if you called them. You can’t sue the kids and putting them in a wood-chipper, while probably the best long term solution, is frowned upon. All the OP has to look forward to is more smashed garden. A completely frustrating situation for anyone. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/110 "2009-03-20T15:11:53Z")
Next time fill the pumpkin with cement. That will show them. OP, can you put up some sort of wire or something to keep them out? And what about a sign or something that says “please don’t ruin my garden.” Yeah, they can still ruin both, but they’re another layer of defence that the kids have to willfully ignore and they can’t plead ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/111 "2009-03-20T15:27:53Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Smashing pumpkins (heh band name … really) was always transgressive. It was never considered “okay” by parents, and if you got caught at it you would certainly be in trouble. That was part of the point. … > > The whole point of such an act is to engage in a bit of naughty defiance against “the authorities” - parents, school, everyone who teaches kids what to do and to be disciplined, accountable and mature persons. > > The point is that the “defiance” was limited in scope. It was “defiance”, sure, but within the context of tradition. It was, if you like, a more or less “safe” defiance. A kid could do it and then go back to obedience the next day. … but the vast majority go on to become responsible adults. The sort, in fact, to own houses, carve pumpkins of their own and to curse the rowdy undisciplined neighbourhood hoodlum kids who smash _their_ pumpkins. 😃 > > It isn’t “people” who have changed - it is us. We grew up. “We” are now “they” and have forgotten the sort of confused punk-ass kids at least some of us used to be. We think the world has changed and kids aren’t what they used to be … a refrain that is _surely_ as old as human history. I smashed my share of pumpkins, “back in the day”. However, I still managed to grow up semi-normal (whatever normal is). It sounds more like the OP’s problem is that these kids do it year round without let up. I also get the hint that their parents just don’t care. That’s not just a Halloween prank. It’s not a one night in the year thing. It’s a constant problem. That’s different. Sure, kids will be kids. They do weird things, and then don’t know why they did it (Bill Cosby spoke the truth about the Brain Damage People). But someone has to set the limits. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/112 "2009-03-20T15:36:40Z")
Am I missing something here? If the OP plants poison ivy in the space how is he going to be able to tend the other plants? It doesn’t sound like it’s big enough that he can set the poison way off to one side or something. Not that I support what the kids are doing of course.\* - This from a guy who, as a kid, along with his brothers and cousins, stood at the end of the driveway and threw gravel instead rocks at passing cars 'cause we was raised up with good, common sense. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/113 "2009-03-20T16:04:43Z")
> [@5-4-Fighting](#): > > Am I missing something here? > > If the OP plants poison ivy in the space how is he going to be able to tend the other plants? It doesn’t sound like it’s big enough that he can set the poison way off to one side or something. I kind of figured that those were jokes? Or was _I_ being whooshed? ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/114 "2009-03-20T16:07:26Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I kind of figured that those were jokes? Or was _I_ being whooshed? I figured they were ultimately jokes, but serious in a “world-where-we-can-infect-kids-with-poison-ivy-to-teach-them-lesson” sort of way, so I thought I’d ask. And I’m tired so I’ve kind of forgotten what the accumulation of posts here actually meant. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/115 "2009-03-20T16:07:30Z")
Audrey 2. Problem sovled. ---
**Author:** ![maladroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@maladroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maladroit)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/116 "2009-03-20T17:26:57Z")
I suggest planting thistles. I personally like the look of the plant and flower, they attract song birds with their seeds, and they’re very picky. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/117 "2009-03-21T04:45:20Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Like some people have forgotten that they were once kids. Not a kid like that I wasn’t and neither were my three brothers! We weren’t even allowed to go into anyone else’s yard without permission, much less go about stomping on plants, etc. It’s like **SomeUserName** said - far too many parents are using their “get out of watching your kids card”. [QUOTE=SteveG1] Audrey 2. Problem sovled. [/QUOTE] :D:D:D:D:D:D Great movie, that. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/118 "2009-03-21T12:12:57Z")
Blackberry bushes have thorns. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/119 "2009-03-21T14:27:11Z")
ChocoLax. Extra strength. Wrappings changed. Left hanging at your front door with a note of “Please don’t take this delicious candy, for OP only”. And a towel to muffle your laughter every time you hear the toilet flush next door. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452/120 "2009-03-21T14:28:54Z")
> [@maladroit](#): > > I suggest planting thistles. I personally like the look of the plant and flower, they attract song birds with their seeds, and they’re very picky. What about a medley? The nettles could be ground cover, and the thistles could be support for the ivy? I wonder what getting poison ivy in your nettle welt is like? I bet it isn’t very fun. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-neighbor-heathen-children/489452.md?page=7)