# Stupid question about the military **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 29, 2002, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173 "2002-08-29T21:10:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/21 "2002-08-30T19:04:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Chiefs also pay for their mess aboard ship. Does not everyone now pay for their mess? In the CG, it was all enlisted afloat were RIK, and officers were on BAS and had to pay chowbills. Chiefs, having their own mess, paid mess attendants, mess dues, but not meals as they were RIK. Did the Navy operate the same, or different? Also, nowadays, everyone is on SEPRATS, including afloat sailors, and chowbills are paid automatically, similiar to what RIK achieved. It’s a good program because enlisted sailors pocket what little is left over, an extra $30 or so a month. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/22 "2002-08-30T20:16:14Z")
Nope. E6 and below on sea duty receive RIK (Rations in Kind) which means the unit feeds them. Shore duty is a different story–depends on the Food Service Officer at the base–there’s some regulation that provides for what number of Enlisted members may be permitted to “subsist” without benefit of the mess. E7 and above on sea duty received a mess bill which included the number of meals they actually consumed. Yet another disparity between the higher ranks and us lowly E6 and below–if we didn’t eat the meal, we didn’t get a refund (except for certain unusual, but covered in the regulations, circumstances). Since the Navy’s main mission is a bit further away from the coast than the Coast Guard’s, there’s a bit of difference in how the feeding’s done. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/23 "2002-08-30T21:06:51Z")
On a Naval Carrier there is an officer or chief informally known as an Air Boss, responsible for the integrity of the air space around the vicinity of the vessel. His authority in this matter is absolute. No captain, admiral, or other superior officer may overrule his judgement in operating the take-offs, landings, or holding patterns: not even Air Force One can fly overhead without his express permission. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/24 "2002-08-30T22:08:00Z")
Enola: That’s another example of positional authority. ---
**Author:** ![Firebat023](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a4c791/32.png) [@Firebat023](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Firebat023)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/25 "2002-08-30T23:31:06Z")
Yes, and yes–but no Marine would ever \want\ to take an order from someone in the Air Force. 😉 Take this one from a Lance Corporal. ---
**Author:** ![flyboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4da419/32.png) [@flyboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flyboy)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/26 "2002-08-30T23:43:45Z")
**Padeye** , where are you getting your info? While I’ve never served on board a carrier, I have served on an AOE, and I have visited and eaten on a carrier. On the AOE, as a JO, I ate with the skipper and other senior and junior officers in the wardroom. On the carrier, IIRC, we ate in one of a couple officer messes. Senior and junior O’s ate there. The food was fine. On both ships, AFAIK, all the officers chip in to a general mess fund. Not just JO’s. This practice carries over to the squadron world, where all the officers chip into the wardroom fund, which pays for officer social functions. I should also point out the tradition of the Bull Ensign, which is the senior Ensign on a ship or in a squadron. This guy, if he so chooses, can wield quite a bit of power, and if you look closely at many commands, **Yeah** , he may even have is own parking spot near the skipper’s. ---
**Author:** ![Rossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@Rossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rossarian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/27 "2002-08-31T00:04:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Turbo Dog \* > \*\* > > **Rossarian** If you were ever in the military, you certainly weren’t in the USMC, and if you were, I’m embarrassed for the USMC and your unit. Quitting or changing your job isn’t an option executed at will.\*\* I think you misunderstood this a bit. I was pointing out how military service is not slavery. If the NCO’s service commitment is running out and they don’t like the situation they are in, they can leave. You can’t leave slavery. Or, instead of extending at the particular unit they are at, they can take the opportunity to change station. The point wasn’t that this is what should be done, just that it the slavery comment makes no sense. Personally, I think the best course of action is one that tries to fix the problem, because bad Lts can become more trouble as they get promoted. \*\* > [@](#): > > Also, assuming you are responding to a different service scenario and sometimes, even in the same service, the Sgt isn’t going to go to the “other” LT’s superior. They will go to their own LT and say (speaking from experience) “this dipshit wants me to do this and it’s fucked up. I need some horsepower”. \*\* I was thinking more an intra-unit scenario in this case. Assuming that the Lts behavior is such that the other officers would recognize it as wrong, the average NCO knows how to get that behavior addressed. Maybe going to a more senior NCO, or an officer they have a good relationship with. As for the different service situation, I’d agree that countering with your own officer would be the quickest way to solve the problem. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/28 "2002-08-31T01:10:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Horseflesh \* > Actually, **tracer** , military service is more akin to voluntary indentured service, not slavery Okay, I’ll grant you that – at least, until they start Drafting recruits again. ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/29 "2002-08-31T16:03:31Z")
Speaking from experience: When I arrived in Viet Nam, I was fresh out college and my second louie bars were fresh out of the box. Realizing this, my commanding officer called my first sergeant and me into his office and told me that this NCO was on his third tour in Viet Nam and also had extensive peace-time service. He pointed out that the sergeant would take my orders no matter how stupid they were. He said he had seen him do it before with other raw officers. He said, however, that it might be best if I didn’t do too much of that and I might consult with Martin (the sergeant in question) rather than “order” him. I took his advice and came out of the conflict with my life and many an enlisted man thought I was a good and effective officer (which I have been told since). Little or none of that was deserved however, most of it came from listening to Martin. Regarding the other question in the OP, my father used to tell a story about when he was in the Navy and walking down the street with my mother, whom he was only dating at the time. An Army officer walked by and my father saluted. My mother was impressed and said she thought it was nice how polite my father was for saluting someone not in his service. My father responded, “Well, they are sort of our allies.” The salute is a symbol of how an officer is superior in rank no matter which service and thus deserving of obedience. In traditional war situations (which haven’t been seen in some time) ranking enemy officers even rate salutes (but you don’t have to take their orders). ---
**Author:** ![williambaskerville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f14d63/32.png) [@williambaskerville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/williambaskerville)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/30 "2002-09-01T10:36:01Z")
Hijack …that chart military ranks reminded me of something I’ve wondered about for years. Since we have knowledgeable military types about , maybe someone can explain it. How come a major outranks a lieutenant, but a lieutenant-general outranks a major -general ? As in, how come the the addition to the “general” ranks goes in reverse order to how the additions go as ranks on their own ? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/31 "2002-09-01T11:07:30Z")
**williambaskerville** : The Perfect Master has answered that one: [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3\_325a.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_325a.html) Short answer - Major General is short for the original _Sergeant Major_ General. And Major is short for _regimental_ Sergeant Major, which is senior to a company-level Lieutenant who is senior to a company-level Sergeant Major ( the ones we still have by that title today ). - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/32 "2002-09-01T13:57:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TV time \* > \*\*In traditional war situations (which haven’t been seen in some time) ranking enemy officers even rate salutes (but you don’t have to take their orders). \*\* I don’t think this is true (anymore?) According to my CG Bluejackets Manual, under whom to salute: > [@](#): > > Officers of foreign armed services whose governments are recognized by the United States. (In practice this means all foreign officers, unless we are actually at war with the country in question.) This is from the 7th edition I got in bootcamp. I think they are up to 9 or so, so I don’t know what the most recent one says. Realizing this isn’t an official doc, it’s info comes from applicable regs, and I haven’t heard of any changes in that area. By the way, that was excellent story of your time in Vietnam and your relationship with Martin. I think it illustrates the points raised in this matter to a T. Thanks for sharing that. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/33 "2002-09-02T01:20:06Z")
I suggest that instead of checking out the Bluejackets Handbook which is a commercial non-official publication, you check out the regulations for the Service concerned regarding “rendering of honors.” ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/34 "2002-09-02T02:20:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by flyboy88 \* > \*\ ***Padeye** , where are you getting your info? While I’ve never served on board a carrier, I have served on an AOE, and I have visited and eaten on a carrier. \*\* Carrier food isn’t bad if you’ve been in port recently but fresh fruits and vegtables soon become a distant memory. I’m not say it was awful bad, but that the squardon OODs would look for any opportunity to eat in the enlisted mess. Bull Ensign? Interesting concept. We only ever had one ensign billet in F-14 squadrons. He’d usually be assigned to maintenance control as a paperweight. Aside from that only O2s and above to one O6 for C.O. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/35 "2002-09-02T03:14:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*I suggest that instead of checking out the Bluejackets Handbook which is a commercial non-official publication, you check out the regulations for the Service concerned regarding “rendering of honors.” \*\* I believe the reference was to the **Bluejacket’s Manual**. [This site](http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=2639) and [this one](http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/news/navnews/nns02/nns020723.txt) seem to think highly of it. A high school friend of mine joined the navy right out of school and trained at Great Lakes. The first thing he was issued, he told me, was a Bluejacket’s Manual and they had to study it every night. The Manual celebrated its 100[sup]th[/sup] birthday in July. When my friend got his the book was [sob] only 38.[/sob] ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/36 "2002-09-02T04:04:18Z")
I just remember a couple of things from the Bluejackets book that were in direct contradiction of the actual regulations. One such is that the BJ says that Merchan Marine officers are to receive salutes from Active Duty Enlisted Members. They aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/37 "2002-09-02T05:37:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Padeye \* > \*\*… squardon OODs would \*\* [William Saffire]OsOD[/WS] ---
**Author:** ![Horseflesh](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horseflesh/32/7502_2.png) [@Horseflesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horseflesh)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/38 "2002-09-02T09:59:14Z")
Well, I’ll stick with the good old AR 600-25 ([Salutes, Honors, and Visit of Courtesy](http://www.usapa.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_25.pdf)), 1-3©: > [@](#): > > It is customary to salute foreign officer of **friendly** foreign nations Bolding mine. I would assume that if you are in the presence of an enemy officer and are thinking about whether to salute or not, then one of you is a POW. And, IIRC, prisoners are allowed to neither receive nor present salutes. ---
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/39 "2002-09-02T12:07:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*I suggest that instead of checking out the Bluejackets Handbook which is a commercial non-official publication, you check out the regulations for the Service concerned regarding “rendering of honors.” \*\* From Coast Guard Regulations, COMDTINST M5000.3: > [@](#): > > 14-1-2 Honors Restricted to Recognized Governments > > A. No salute shall be fired in honor of any nation or of any official of any nation not formally recognized by the Government of the United States; and, except as authorized by the Commandant, no other honors or ceremonies prescribed in these regulations shall be rendered or exchanged with such nations or officials. These are CG regs, YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173/40 "2002-09-02T14:52:36Z")
Horseflesh: There’s a huge difference between a Prisoner of War and a Prisoner. The latter are those who are being disciplined (as the military calls it). The former are merely members of the enemy combatant force. POWs are not restricted from rendering military salutes. Prisoners who are not POWs are restricted from that privilege. Chandeleur: You’re talking about ceremonial salutes such as firing of cannon. What’s being discussed at the moment is the hand salute. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-about-the-military/126173.md?page=3)