# Stupid question? \[If time and space did not exist before the big bang, where and when did it happen\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 9, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528 "2017-06-09T17:21:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mr\_Bombastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@Mr\_Bombastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Bombastic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/1 "2017-06-09T17:21:19Z")
OK. I’m a Christian and a science buff. I love science, but I also believe that abiogenesis is not the answer to the origin of life. I do not believe that the universe created itself or that mutation and natural selection are, in any way, a factual answer for life as we know it. Here’s my question. Einstein tells us that time and space are part of the fabric of the universe. In fact, time and space are linked in some mysterious way. I’m talking about the time dilation effect of space travel. The faster you go, the slower time passes. Now, I’m making the assumption that time and space did not exist before the universe did. I think this is a valid assumption since they are part of the physical universe. Back to my question. If time and space did not exist before the big bang, where and when did it happen? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/2 "2017-06-09T17:24:47Z")
What is north of the North Pole? Frameworks are only valid for things which occur within those Frameworks. Time and space are part of this universe, we do not have conceptual or mathematical models for anything outside this universe. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/3 "2017-06-09T17:30:11Z")
> [@Mr\_Bombastic](#): > > OK. I’m a Christian and a science buff. I love science, but I also believe that abiogenesis is not the answer to the origin of life. I do not believe that the universe created itself or that mutation and natural selection are, in any way, a factual answer for life as we know it. > > Here’s my question. Einstein tells us that time and space are part of the fabric of the universe. In fact, time and space are linked in some mysterious way. I’m talking about the time dilation effect of space travel. The faster you go, the slower time passes. Now, I’m making the assumption that time and space did not exist before the universe did. I think this is a valid assumption since they are part of the physical universe. Back to my question. If time and space did not exist before the big bang, where and when did it happen? How is the first paragraph in any way relevant to the second one? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/4 "2017-06-09T17:34:01Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > What is north of the North Pole?. Two other North Poles. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/5 "2017-06-09T17:50:41Z")
> [@Mr\_Bombastic](#): > > [snip] … where and when did it happen? 12.7 billion years ago … answer to both questions … ---
**Author:** ![Ornery\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/da6949/32.png) [@Ornery\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ornery_Bob)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/6 "2017-06-09T18:04:05Z")
As you say, space and time started with the big bang, so there was no “where” and there was no “when” before the big bang. It’s counterintuitive, but it’s still true. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/7 "2017-06-09T18:04:36Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > 12.7 billion years ago … answer to both questions … 13.7 billion years, but who’s counting? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/8 "2017-06-09T18:07:27Z")
> [@Mr\_Bombastic](#): > > OK. I’m a Christian and a science buff. I love science, but I also believe that abiogenesis is not the answer to the origin of life. I do not believe that the universe created itself or that mutation and natural selection are, in any way, a factual answer for life as we know it. You can believe whatever you like, it doesn’t make it true. To avoid beliefs in fallacies you have to do more than “love” science; you have to appreciate the essential function of the scientific method in discovering truths about the world. > [@DrFidelius](#): > > Time and space are part of this universe, we do not have conceptual or mathematical models for anything outside this universe. Well, we do, but they’re highly speculative – for example, various multiverse hypotheses and Everett’s “many worlds”. With respect to the Big Bang, one such pertinent hypothesis is [imaginary time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_time), closely related to the [Hartle-Hawking proposal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartle%E2%80%93Hawking_state). > [@Mr\_Bombastic](#): > > If time and space did not exist before the big bang, where and when did it happen? If time and space did not exist, then “when” and “where” are meaningless. It’s completely pointless to try to visualize the Big Bang in intuitive human terms. An interesting proposal that normalizes the Big Bang as a coordinate in spacetime is the “imaginary time” model mentioned above, but it posits a four-dimensional Euclidian spacetime. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/9 "2017-06-09T18:38:14Z")
> [@Mr\_Bombastic](#): > > [snip] … but I also believe that abiogenesis is not the answer to the origin of life … [snap] Wierd … my Bible is quite succinct about abiogenesis: > [@](#): > > 11 - And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. > 12 - And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. > > Genesis chap. 1 I think only the Hindus believe that life always was and always will be … ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/10 "2017-06-09T18:45:27Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > 13.7 billion years, but who’s counting? A billion here, a billion there, and suddenly you’re talking real time. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/11 "2017-06-09T18:51:05Z")
> [@Mr\_Bombastic](#): > > OK. I’m a Christian and a science buff. I love science, but I also believe that abiogenesis is not the answer to the origin of life. I do not believe that the universe created itself or that mutation and natural selection are, in any way, a factual answer for life as we know it. > > Here’s my question. Einstein tells us that time and space are part of the fabric of the universe. In fact, time and space are linked in some mysterious way. I’m talking about the time dilation effect of space travel. The faster you go, the slower time passes. Now, I’m making the assumption that time and space did not exist before the universe did. I think this is a valid assumption since they are part of the physical universe. Back to my question. If time and space did not exist before the big bang, where and when did it happen? By definition, the coordinates (0,0,0,0). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/12 "2017-06-09T18:52:27Z")
I have edited the title to indicate the subject. Please use descriptive thread titles. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/13 "2017-06-09T19:00:25Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > By definition, the coordinates (0,0,0,0). So we can’t point out where that is in a universe we perceive as (x, y, z, 13.7 billion) … ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/14 "2017-06-09T19:09:05Z")
It might interest you to know that this question was first addressed by St. Augustine, in rebuttal to an argument against God. The argument asks, if God created the Universe, then what was He doing in all of the infinite time before that? And if there was an infinite time before the Universe, then what took Him so long to create it? Augustine was the first to answer this question by stating (as is the modern view) that time is itself part of the Universe, and so there was no time before the Creation. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/15 "2017-06-09T19:13:48Z")
If the entire universe was contained in the singularity that then expanded, then every place in the universe today was at the center of the universe. There’s no place in our universe where the big bang happened, it happened everywhere. Of course, what “singularity” means is “at this point our physical models no longer apply”. We observe the universe to discover the laws of physics. But those laws of physics are the laws of physics of our universe. So for example, we understand that there is such a thing as conservation of energy. Energy and matter doesn’t just suddenly appear out of nowhere. So how the heck could the universe appear out of nowhere in the big bang? Except how are we supposed to answer that question? We can’t because the laws of physics that apply to our universe only apply to the universe. We have no way of knowing what could happen when there was no universe. Even saying “when there was…” is a misnomer, since there was no time existing before the universe existed. So understanding the origin of the universe is a lot trickier than just learning the laws of physics and rewinding the clock and figuring out what happened earlier and earlier. At some point there’s no there there. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/16 "2017-06-09T19:18:13Z")
Quick question - I’ve heard that “the big bang is everywhere” which means that any given part of space is part of the big bang. So does the same thing apply to time? Was the big bang happening throughout time, and still happening now? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/17 "2017-06-09T19:20:27Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > By definition, the coordinates (0,0,0,0). If you want to do it that way the “coordinates” were (everywhere, t=0). > [@watchwolf49](#): > > So we can’t point out where that is in a universe we perceive as (x, y, z, 13.7 billion) … No. The Big Bang happened everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/18 "2017-06-09T19:28:55Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Quick question - I’ve heard that “the big bang is everywhere” which means that any given part of space is part of the big bang. So does the same thing apply to time? Was the big bang happening throughout time, and still happening now? The Big Bang is the theoretical singularity that you ultimately reach if you look back in time through the expansion of space since the universe began. The singularity itself is associated with a specific time in the past. But the expansion of space is still happening. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/19 "2017-06-09T19:58:52Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Was the big bang happening throughout time, and still happening now? “Big Bang” is an unfortunate term to have catch on for describing the event because it implies an explosion–something that happens for a moment, then ends, leaving debris flying away from it. But the beginning of the universe is really the beginning of the expansion of space, and yes, that expansion in continuing today (slower than in the first fractions of a second of the universe, and slower than tomorrow, but faster than yesterday.) ---
**Author:** ![LicketySplit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@LicketySplit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LicketySplit)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528/20 "2017-06-09T21:13:50Z")
> [@Mr\_Bombastic](#): > > OK. I’m a Christian and a science buff. I love science, but I also believe that abiogenesis is not the answer to the origin of life. I do not believe that the universe created itself or that mutation and natural selection are, in any way, a factual answer for life as we know it. > > Here’s my question. Einstein tells us that time and space are part of the fabric of the universe. In fact, time and space are linked in some mysterious way. I’m talking about the time dilation effect of space travel. The faster you go, the slower time passes. Now, I’m making the assumption that time and space did not exist before the universe did. I think this is a valid assumption since they are part of the physical universe. Back to my question. If time and space did not exist before the big bang, where and when did it happen? Nothing needed to exist prior to the Big Bang is Time itself was created along with the Cosmos when it occurred. So…to answer your question…the Big Bang happened…and time began…about 13.7 BYA. At least…that is the agreed-upon date of the MOST RECENT BB. I say “most recent” because I am one of those of the opinion that this most recent BB could very well have been merely just the latest in a string of them. Dating back to who knows when? To unfathomably distant times. So…yeah…think…Big Bang…Expansion…Stasis…Contraction…Big Crunch…and then: Big Bang…Expansion…repeat X infinity. Think of a bubbling pot of water. But the thing about all this is, the reason so many people cannot fathom this notion of Nothing Existing pre-BB, is that the modern homo sapien mind cannot grasp the idea of “nothingness.” Nor can it handle the idea of “eternity.” So…people have to invent myths and whatnot so as to compensate for the terror of facing nothingness after death, for example. Anyway…back to those multiple Big Bangs… I must confess I am somewhat less enamored with the Many Worlds or the “infinite string of Big Bangs” hypotheses than I used to be. Why this is has to do with the fairly recent (about a decade ago?) discovery of Dark Energy. Which is actually accelerating our Universe’s outer galaxies away from each other at a much-faster rate than we previously thought. At a much faster rate then the Hubble Constant or known laws of gravity and Cosmology should allow. SO this latest development seems to somewhat lessen the chance of a “Big Crunch.” At least I would think so. Stephen Hawking used to be a “Big Crunch” advocate but himself has revised his theory on that, given the discovery of this Dark Energy. Which, BTW, we don’t even know what it is, yet. Not a clue. the term Dark Energy is simply a sort of “place holder” name. So…good for you, being a Christian AND loving science. Most Christians I know seem to refute much known and proven science when it contradicts with the beliefs of their faith. I myself am an Agnostic. May I ask…do you believe in Evolution as well? I would think that anybody who says they love science just about HAS to believe in it. Given all the proof we have of it. And how it has never been seriously challenged and has passed every single test ever thrown at it. And with flying colors, too! Cheers. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-question-if-time-and-space-did-not-exist-before-the-big-bang-where-and-when-did-it-happen/788528.md?page=2)