# Stupid questions about ties **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 21, 2002, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074 "2002-07-21T07:42:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gozu\_Tashoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7993a0/32.png) [@Gozu\_Tashoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu_Tashoya)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/1 "2002-07-21T07:42:52Z")
SQ #1 Wearing a tie with a suit (jacket) = cool. Tie and shirt, sans jacket = uncool? SQ #2 Is one knot “cooler” than the others? Not aesthetically, but in a “Feh, look at him. He only uses a _half_ Windsor, what a dork” kind of way. SQ #3 Is it okay if the tip of the tie hangs over my belt a little? Personally, I’d prefer it if it were above my waist, but for that it looks like I’d need either a longer tie, or :groan: a fancier knot. \ I’m not sure. As long as it doesn’t involve putting on a suit and doing a lot of flying. \ ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/2 "2002-07-21T13:58:08Z")
1. I don’t see a problem with wearing a long-sleeved shirt and tie _sans_ jacket, as long as such attire is appropriate for the occaision. Now then, _short-sleeved_ shirts with ties, IMHO, come off as dorky, kind of like used-car-salesmen-wear. Others MMV. 2. No, I’ve never noticed a coolness factor associated with four-in-hand or Windsor knots. The closest thing I could think of regarding necktie knots and their possible associations is that a four-in-hand knot might get you taken for a military man. 3. IMHO, a tie _should_ go town to the belt, assuming you wear your dress pants at or just below your navel. Hanging a little past the belt? I say “no problem”. ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/3 "2002-07-21T14:34:11Z")
YMMV of course, but to me the T knot is the only one for a tie. Even a half Windsor is too fat. It means either that your tie is not made of silk, you’ve pulled the knot so tight as to crush the tie, or that your shirt doesn’t fit. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/4 "2002-07-21T15:00:30Z")
About wearing a tie with a short-sleeved shirt - is that really, actually, truly dorky? I don’t wear long-sleeved shirts. Can’t stand em, even in the winter. The atmosphere where I work is very stuffy, so I wear short-sleeved shirts. Usually, I don’t wear ties at all. This past week, though, I decided to “dress up” and wore a tie on two days. I was told I looked good! Was I really just a dork? Now I need to know. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/5 "2002-07-21T15:05:38Z")
Well, I wore a shirt and tie without a jacket almost every day for the last seven years, so I _hope_ it’s not dorky! :eek: To hell with the ties. I’m just happy I’m now in a “creative” position where I can wear T-shirts, jeans and sneakers any time I want. ---
**Author:** ![Stimpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/779978/32.png) [@Stimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stimpy)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/6 "2002-07-21T15:15:03Z")
tie with a t-shirt, that’s where the problems truly lie. ---
**Author:** ![minlokwat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minlokwat/32/2844_2.png) [@minlokwat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minlokwat)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/7 "2002-07-21T23:03:07Z")
Answers to the not-too-stupid questions in no particular order: 1. I use only and exclusively a full-windsor knot. To me, it is the most evenly “balanced” knot and you need to include the little dimple which some knots do not seem to allow. I must be in a distinct minority when I say that I don’t mind wearing neck-ties at all and unless I get very uncomfortable, rarely unbutton the collar, pull the tie down and get that “casual-busy-guy” look that was all the rage in the 80’s. 2. The tie should extend to just below the belt buckle. Any less and you have the slightly-not-with-it grandpa look. Take it too far and you have the Lou Costello version. Definitely to be avoided. 3. Ties without jacket. No problem. Some nice solid-colored shirts worn with a snazzy cravat would be ruined if worn with a jacket. Ties with short-sleeved shirt, ehh… if you get away with it. You can only pull this off with a solid white shirt and hey, it worked for Sipowicz (sp??? you know, the NYPD Blue guy). ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/8 "2002-07-21T23:43:01Z")
The answer to all of your questions is it depends on the individual. There are people that can look dorky in almost any atire and those that transend even the dorkiest look. John F. Kennedy could do the coatless tie thing and make it look very good. Al Gore and Richard Nixon could not. Bogart could wear a tie that made it maybe half-way down to his navel and still look very cool. Lou Costello could not. In regard to the type of knot, I think a great deal of that depends on the material of which the tie is made. A good quality silk tie lies down much better than most other materials and thus can tolerate a more complex knot without sticking out and calling negative attention to the wearer. Some other fabrics cannot. Regarding the length of a tie, different lengths can be worn by different individuals. In many ways the rules for women and skirt length apply. Heavier individuals should wear a tie slightly longer than thinner people. Trim short men can wear a tie slightly higher than a taller man, etc. I am also inclined to suggest it depends on whether the individual wearing the tie is sitting or standing when the tie is seen. For most people their tie rides much lower when sitting than when standing so what looks cool on a person sitting at a desk may well not look as good when he rises. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/9 "2002-07-22T00:29:26Z")
Your choice of knot should depend on the width/heaviness of the tie and the style of your collar. I prefer the full windsor, but if it makes the collar points fly or otherwise screws up the shape of the collar, go with a smaller knot. The four-in-hand is easier to make symmetrical than the half windsor. Nott, the knotter ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/10 "2002-07-22T00:54:37Z")
There is but one knot: the Doube Windsor. The jacket goes off in the car, and at the desk. Whilst moving about in the office, it is supposed to be on, except _maybe_ for a quick visit to the loo. Suits are supposed to be in one colour. Combinations are _not_ appropriate business attire. Suits come in two colours: marine and grey. Optionally, a suit may be pin-striped. Dress shirts do **not** come in short sleeve versions. They have double cuffs (to be worn with classy cufflinks), wide spread collars that use those insert-stiffen-thingies ( **UncleBeer** knows what they’re called), and come with no shirt pocket. They are either solid, striped, or slightly checkered. Possible colours are white, light to medium blue, and light pink. Shoes are black, and have laces, not belts or buckles or whatnot. The soles are made of leather, not rubber. The sole has a Goodyear-stitch. On a trendy day, ankle-high shoes may be worn. There is an ongoing debate about whether or not Brogues are appropriate. I’m modern, and say thay can be. If black. Socks are black, gray or blue (see suit: match it, or be safe and match the shoes: i.e., black). _Maybe_ they are checkered, but only if they’re real Burlingtons. Ties are solid, striped, or have a _modest_ pattern. There are no other ties. There are stories doing the rounds about ties with Disney figures on them, but those are likely Urban Legends. Tie colours are the only thing about your attire that can be bright: flaming yellow, bright red, metalic blue, do it. It’s your only chance of making the suit “speak”. The belt is always worn (dress pants without a belt! Feh!), it is black, and it has a silver buckle. Tie pins are strictly forbidden, as are armbands, necklaces, earrings, and facial piercings. Welcome to the world of banking. I don’t _mind_ having all these fancy clothes, I really don’t. But I’m glad that I can go “casual” now, because of the hot summer weather. But **if** you’re gonna wear a suit, do it the right way, or not at all. ---
**Author:** ![Juniper200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@Juniper200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Juniper200)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/11 "2002-07-22T01:23:30Z")
Oh, Coldfire…I knew there was a reason I liked you so much. (Aside from the 1,000 mile penis, that is.) I want a suave European man who knows how to wear a suit properly! I want one and I want him now! ::sigh:: Coldie’s so dreamy… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/12 "2002-07-22T01:24:11Z")
I agree, **Coldfire**. BTW, they’re collar stays. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/13 "2002-07-22T02:01:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Juniper200 \* > **I want a suave European man who knows how to wear a suit properly! I want one and I want him now!** I’m sure there’s plenty of them out there still, but this one’s taken. 🙂 Oh, and the penis… it’s really in kilometers. I’m sorry to disappoint. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/14 "2002-07-22T12:02:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh, and the penis… it’s really in kilometers. I’m sorry to disappoint. “I know what you’re thinking, baby; and if I told you, you’d think I was talking in centimeters!” (“Mike” – _The Young Ones_, “Time”) Re: Tie length. Has anyone seen movies from the 1930s? It seems like many men’s ties only came down to just below the chest. (Interestingly, many of the trousers seemed to actually come all the way _up_ to the chest!) ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/15 "2002-07-22T12:20:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KKBattousai \* > \*\*SQ #3 > Is it okay if the tip of the tie hangs over my belt a little? Personally, I’d prefer it if it were above my waist, but for that it looks like I’d need either a longer tie, or :groan: a fancier knot. > \*\* On this note, perhaps one of your sartorial experts can tell me - with a properly knotted tie, is it OK for one of the ends to be longer than the other? Or should they just be evened out? Might be that mine aren’t tied correctly. I’m such a shmoe. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowWarrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@ShadowWarrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowWarrior)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/16 "2002-07-22T13:44:27Z")
As long as the wide end is the longer, I’d say it doesn’t matter how much one end is shorter than the other. Having the thin end longer makes you look like a rebelling schoolboy 😃 Personally, I wear my suit jacket to work, then leave it on the back of my chair all day, then wear it home. It’s too damn hot and uncomfortable to wear it all day. I also dislike short-sleeved shirts with ties but (bizarrely) I hate wearing long sleeves (for some reason, I dislike having things around my wrist - I don’t even wear a watch) therefore I roll my sleeves up which, to me, doesn’t look quite as geeky as short sleeves. I may be wrong, but I’m a self-acknowledged geek anyway, so… The one combination that looks utterly, utterly ridiculous is jeans/shirt/tie… seems to be popular with americans, but just looks bizarre… ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/17 "2002-07-22T13:47:54Z")
Actually, they have half-sleeves around here, which aren’t as high up as short sleeves but not as long and unwieldy as the long sleeves. Don’t even need to roll 'em up. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowWarrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@ShadowWarrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowWarrior)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/18 "2002-07-22T14:18:20Z")
hmmm, never come across them… not sure if i’d like them, because I’ve kind of got used to having the roll just above my elbow… ---
**Author:** ![Squish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Squish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squish)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/19 "2002-07-22T14:41:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*The belt is always worn (dress pants without a belt! Feh!), it is black, and it has a silver buckle. \ But **if** you’re gonna wear a suit, do it the right way, or not at all. \*\* Bravo, **Coldfire**! I would think, however, that suspenders would be acceptable in place of a belt when wearing a three-piece suit, to avoid a bump under the vest where the belt buckle is. There is no such thing as a short-sleeved dress shirt. If you’re warm and you can get away with it, roll up your sleeves neatly to just below the elbow. Short-sleeved shirts with ties are just… \ ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074/20 "2002-07-22T17:35:16Z")
Gotta disagree with **Coldfire** on a few things: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > **Suits are supposed to be in one colour. Combinations are _not_ appropriate business attire. Suits come in two colours: marine and grey. Optionally, a suit may be pin-striped.** Now, now, there are more colors than that. Black is an option, although you’ll have to deal with “who died?” from the office wags. I reckon I could pull off an olive or a tan. And there are lots of shades available in the colors you describe, such as plain blue (but not light blue, yech), navy, and charcoal (the color of my favorite suit). > [@](#): > > **Dress shirts do not come in short sleeve versions. They have double cuffs (to be worn with classy cufflinks), wide spread collars that use those insert-stiffen-thingies (UncleBeer knows what they’re called), and come with no shirt pocket. They are either solid, striped, or slightly checkered. Possible colours are white, light to medium blue, and light pink.** Agreed on the long-sleeve issue, but you really can experiment more with shirts. Again, one of my favorites (which goes great with the charcoal suit) has a very very tiny bluish-black check, which gives it a medium-blue-grey appearance from more than a foot away. > [@](#): > > **Shoes are black, and have laces, not belts or buckles or whatnot. The soles are made of leather, not rubber. The sole has a Goodyear-stitch. On a trendy day, ankle-high shoes may be worn. There is an ongoing debate about whether or not Brogues are appropriate. I’m modern, and say thay can be. If black.** Fashion does not necessarily mean pain, and rubber-soled shoes are just SO much easier on the feet than leather-soled shoes. So, can’t agree with this rule. > [@](#): > > \*\*Socks are black, gray or blue (see suit: match it, or be safe and match the shoes: i.e., black). _Maybe_ they are checkered, but only if they’re real Burlingtons. \*\* Argyle! Woohoo! > [@](#): > > **Ties are solid, striped, or have a _modest_ pattern. There are no other ties. There are stories doing the rounds about ties with Disney figures on them, but those are likely Urban Legends. Tie colours are the only thing about your attire that can be bright: flaming yellow, bright red, metalic blue, do it. It’s your only chance of making the suit “speak”.** And here you lose me altogether. The tie is the one true means of fashion expression for the male. While you do need to choose carefully, one needn’t limit oneself to what I call “movie theater carpet ties” to be respectable. Personally, I love asymmetrical patterns, long rectangles, and the occasional fanciful scene (I have some Cirque du Soleil ties that are to die for). If I could find a Mondrian tie, I’d be a happy Max. > [@](#): > > **Tie pins are strictly forbidden, as are armbands, necklaces, earrings, and facial piercings.** Again, you lost me. My tie pin is very simple and elegant, and when you wear a 60 Long jacket, you have a lot of tie to control; I’m gonna keep wearing it or not wearing it as the urge grips me. One thing you left out: **handkerchief**. My opinion: Are you freaking nuts? Leave it at home. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-questions-about-ties/120074.md?page=2)