# Stupid religious idea of the day **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 15, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928 "2015-01-15T20:39:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/41 "2015-01-18T01:18:30Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > You, and GumpyBunny, are painting all people of religion with one of the broadest brushes alive. There is, believe it or not, an entire world of things between bowing down to the wishes of dangerous extremists and having a modicum of respect for another’s religious beliefs. And here I thought it would be obvious that I was referring to the kinds of people that blow others up for their religious beliefs. I forgot about the broad brush brigade. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/42 "2015-01-18T02:42:43Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > And here I thought it would be obvious that I was referring to the kinds of people that blow others up for their religious beliefs. Your post was addressing the comments of the Pope, who hasn’t blown up others for his religious beliefs. You included references to the Pope’s beliefs about the Garden of Eden. Then you refer to “so many religious leaders”. I thought it was pretty obvious you were not limiting your comments to extremists who would kill others for their beliefs as you now claim you were. Glad I could clear it up for you. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/43 "2015-01-18T02:56:41Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > [Pope Francis: You cannot make fun of the faith of others.](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/the-pope/11347931/Pope-Francis-You-cannot-make-fun-of-the-faith-of-others.html) > > He goes on to add, “There must be limits to free speech when it comes to religion.” So the Pope will send a hit squad with kalashnikovs if I draw him? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/44 "2015-01-18T03:28:53Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > So the Pope will send a hit squad with kalashnikovs if I draw him? NO ONE EXPECTS THE … You know the rest. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/45 "2015-01-18T03:44:32Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Your post was addressing the comments of the Pope, who hasn’t blown up others for his religious beliefs. You included references to the Pope’s beliefs about the Garden of Eden. Then you refer to “so many religious leaders”. I thought it was pretty obvious you were not limiting your comments to extremists who would kill others for their beliefs as you now claim you were. > > Glad I could clear it up for you. You’ve cleared up nothing except the filter you’re reading posts through. I’m not referring specifically the Pope; I’m referring to Muslims who kill and maim others who disagree with them. I quoted the FFRF about religious books containing ideas that no humane person should approve of (and indeed should argue against and make fun of). I do hope you have that reading comprehension problem taken care of. It must make life difficult. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/46 "2015-01-18T04:03:33Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > So the Pope will send a hit squad with kalashnikovs if I draw him? Don’t be tacky. [Steyr TMPs and H & K MP5s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Guard), dear child. And halberds, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/47 "2015-01-18T05:28:52Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > What makes an idea particularly stupid? > > There’s an entire universe of terrible ideas. I’ve had my fair share of them. Everyone has had really bad ideas before. Sometimes you recognize them right away, like the impulse to punch someone in the face when you don’t like the way their voice sounds. Other ideas, you consider to be a good idea, for a long while, until you realize it’s not all its cracked up to be. > > Some people are duped into thinking the Flat Tax would be a great idea. Hell, I was one of those guys. Seemed to be a great way to make the tax structure a lot less complicated, and if every class paid the same percentage, boy, that would be very fair. And then you actually sit and think about it for a while, and realize you’ve just fallen for good marketing, of a very bad idea. > > Some ideas are really bad ideas, but they become part of our “little believies” as Louis CK puts it. That’s when your idea is precious to you, like a child. Your little believy could be something as simple as saying “Bless You” when someone sneezes. Your believy is that saying that when someone sneezes is Good, and people who don’t say it are Bad or neutral. And you insist people say it, and consider it rude when people don’t say it. > > Well, that’s a fucking stupid belief. > > It’s a dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb tradition that has existed for many years. It might be based on the antiquated notion that there are evil spirits trying to escape from your body when you sneeze. Just another throwback to a time when people’s understanding of the universe was pretty piss poor. Yet we cling to it like it matters today, because it’s part of our little believies. And your little believies matter to you. > > It just fuckin’ bugs me when people not only do that, but they insist others conform to doing that. > > No, fuck you, and your little belief. I don’t say it. > > I don’t give this little speech every time people say it, I leave well enough alone. But it’s a perfect example of people trying to enforce conformity for no goddamned fucking reason. And it pisses me off a little. > > But I let it go. Why? Because you saying “Bless you” or “God Bless You” doesn’t affect me, or the person you’re saying it to, and it just doesn’t matter in general. It’s not worth a clash of ideas. Your idea is dumb, but I leave it alone. > > If you insist \*I’m rude \*for not saying Bless You With Fairy Dust And Chocolate Sprinkles every time someone has a tickle in their nose, then you’re a prick. And that’s when I’ll tell you that you’re a prick, and tell you where to shove it. Because that’s when **your little belief** has crossed the line into **up its own ass-ville.** > > I get along quite fine with people who disagree with me on everything, from the major stuff to the not-major stuff. > > Hell, at work, I’ve got a guy who is a flaming right-wing Obama hating Republican who thinks I am the shit. I’m like his main guy. We hardly agree on a damned thing politics wise. But I get along with him because when he says his thing, I nod, and I say my thing, and he nods, and any disagreement we have doesn’t have to be resolved then and there, because we’re not at war, and it doesn’t make either one of us a prick to have a different opinion, even when it comes to Major Stuff like how we pay for people to get medicine when they’re poor, which is a major fucking big fucking deal to a lot of people, and it matters in this world _WAY WAY MORE_ than whether or not people pray for shit. Which is an empirical fact at this point. > > So when people say bless you or that they are a Sagittarius or that they believe what’s in their fortune cookie is for reals, or if they have actual lucky numbers or that they wish upon a star or that they cross their fingers when they tell a lie, or if they think that prayer is useful or they worship a pantheon of gods or just one or none, I just nod. > > Because none of it is worth arguing about. > > And when people tell me to my face that Obama is teh ebul communist set on destroying Real Merica, I also nod. Sometimes I laugh, but I just nod. Because sure, why not. That’s what you believe. I don’t respect it, but **I don’t care.** You’ll actually do something about it, which is vote however which way pleases you, and it still doesn’t bother me, because nothing I say is going to change your mind anyway, so go for it. I’ve got to live in the nation you want to build, but, live and let live. If you want to actually debate with me about it, I’ll tear you a new asshole and gift-wrap it for you, and then shake hands afterward, but otherwise, live and let live. > > Any belief, no matter how stupid, becomes a Very Stupid Idea when someone decides that this idea is so genius that everyone else has to agree with me about it. > > I’m not talking science questions. Science allows for people to be skeptical of the science itself. But when the evidence leans one way to a very obvious degree, and it’s not acknowledged, then you’re probably being foolish. But I’ll exempt science deniers from this argument, because some of them \*have _to deny science because it interferes with their_ little believies. \*They want to walk around with a bag over their eyes, it’s their life. I’ll just go with what the vast majority of scientists who are actually in that field think because I understand some of them might have smarter ideas than my own little believies. > > But for your religious ideas, your political ideas, your how-to-live-your-life ideas, ideas about what is socially acceptable, what is polite, what is rude, what is funny… these are all opinions and everyone has them. And some ideas are bad ideas, that we can just shrug off because who gives a shit. > > But other ideas start off as bad ideas, and then they become Very Stupid Ideas. > > Very Stupid Ideas are ones where I’m absolutely sure everyone else in my country or on Earth needs to agree with, or accept the authority of, my opinion. > > And I’m not talking about obvious stuff, like I think Rape Is Bad. > > I’m talking about not-obvious, debateable stuff, like “I am pretty sure that embryos have a soul, and we’re destroying that soul when we do an abortion”. Okay, show me a soul, and we’ll talk. Until then, it’s just your little believy and I don’t care about your little believy. I care about the life and livelihood of the actual grown woman who I can quite clearly see, and the effects to her life this decision holds, which I can also quite clearly see. That’s what interests me. > > I’m talking about things like It’s Super Important That Woman Are Fully Covered At All Times. Really? Society seems to go along just fine without that rule. And the women seem pretty happy. I’m pretty sure that’s just your little believy and I don’t care about your little believy. And I think it’s something you cannot and should not impose on people. > > That’s a Very Stupid Idea. > > But it becomes exponentially dumber when you suggest everyone must live by this rule or they should be punished, or they should die, or we’re going to blow people up until you live by the rule. > > Then it becomes **The Dumbest Idea Ever Thought.** > > And then the ridicule, oh, the ridicule, is never ever ever ever more deserved. What was that about naked people in a garden? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/48 "2015-01-18T05:36:02Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > So the Pope will send a hit squad with kalashnikovs if I draw him? Well he \*does \*supposedly have a team of gnarly Vatican assassin warlocks on payroll, but I have my doubts regarding their field leadership. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/49 "2015-01-18T13:36:00Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > You’ve cleared up nothing except the filter you’re reading posts through. Of course. In a post where you specifically talk about a general statement the Pope made and descriptions of his beliefs, you were, in fact, only talking about Muslim extremists. Gotcha. Let me try that fascinating communication technique: “I think that when Bill Cosby said that his direct quotes were misconstrued, he was either trying to back pedal from a point he made, or he is so poor at communication that he said one thing and meant another. But rather than admit he was wrong, he tried to blame someone who called him on it as having poor reading comprehension, which was just sad and pathetic.” You get one guess who I mean. And it’s not Bill Cosby. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/50 "2015-01-18T13:36:16Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I repeat the question, but with all the offense I can stuff into it. > > Here’s the transcript from [WhiteHouse.gov](http://WhiteHouse.gov): I’m confused. Who is he talking about there? The cartoonists? That makes sense, grammatically, but not philosophically. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/51 "2015-01-18T15:28:03Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > The Pope should win some kind of award for “most quotes misconstrued or misinterpreted by the media and people in general.” He is not speaking _ex cathedra_ every time he says something, or else dogma would dictate that San Lorenzo de Almagro is the Holiest football club. Especially considering that, in Argentina, that title belongs to Independiente de Avellaneda. > [@marshmallow](#): > > Stupid religious idea of the day? I thought one of the joys or religion is not having to come up with new ideas. You thought wrong, whaddaya think? > [@BigT](#): > > Please stop using “freedom of speech” as “freedom to be a jerk without consequences.” That’s troll logic. Exactly. I’d love to see all these posters living in the real world with their no-consequences-ever version of freedom of speech. Maybe we could sing “your mama’s gonna die son” to my neighbour becuase his mum’s got terminal cancer. “Dude, it’s science, bitches, terminal cancer kills, you know, why doesn’t he understand? Why is he angry for my telling the truth?..Why did he key my car doors? He hates freedom of speech” > [@Mince](#): > > Stupid and religion. Would you quit being so fucking repetitive? Maybe when you start being intelligent, or at least having an IQ greater than your age. > [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > Watch me, pal. > > Seriously, why do so many people think that the ideas in religion should be exempt from mocking? Is it because they’re some of the most ridiculous ideas around? (A talking snake, two naked people in a garden, and a forbidden apple?) Or is it because mocking (satire) indicates thought, and thought is anathema to so many religious leaders? Religion? It shouldn’t be exempt qua religion. However, if you constantly offend a group people, making fun of something they consider important for them, moreso if such group of people if currently being discriminated and treated as second class citizens; then not expecting some kind of reaction is stupid. If I spit on the UFC heavyweght’s champion’s girlfirend’s face and he punches me and breaks my nose, I can legally say he was wrong, however, morally I was and asshole and should’ve thought about the real-life consequences of my actions and not the the only-works-in-theory world of anonymous message boards. Freedom of speech? All the way Being a dick (especially with the opressed) and not expecting consequences? Stupid Maybe I could go to the US and go to a “black” neighbourhood and start telling passersby “you know that very possibly one (or some) of your great-great-grand-mothers was raped by her owner, when, you know, legally she was like a chair you could buy or sell?”…yeah, it would go very well. Maybe you could go with me a defend me by saying “dude, freedom of speech, what he’s saying is scientifically true”. > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > If you insist \*I’m rude \*for not saying Bless You With Fairy Dust And Chocolate Sprinkles every time someone has a tickle in their nose, then you’re a prick. And that’s when I’ll tell you that you’re a prick, and tell you where to shove it. Because that’s when **your little belief** has crossed the line into **up its own ass-ville.** That’s the point. We all have our stuff. I we made fun of every wrong thing the other guy had/did/said/thought they life would we worse. I agree that if people are assholes directly to you an answer is in the offing. In your sneezing example if somebody, in private, asked why you didn’t say “bless you” (we say “health” in Spanish) and you politely explained and still he tried to force you to say it, by all means, reap him a new one. > [@](#): > > I get along quite fine with people who disagree with me on everything, from the major stuff to the not-major stuff. Civility rocks. I’m a conservative catholic and, at work, I’m telling my divorced and re-married colleague “you’re going to hell, Donna”. If she were to ask me the Catholic perspective on divorce and I told her and then she yelled at me I’d be pissed off. As someone said (for Christians): “preach always, sometimes with words” > [@](#): > > I’m talking about not-obvious, debateable stuff, like “I am pretty sure that embryos have a soul, and we’re destroying that soul when we do an abortion”. Okay, show me a soul, and we’ll talk. Until then, it’s just your little believy and I don’t care about your little believy. I care about the life and livelihood of the actual grown woman who I can quite clearly see, and the effects to her life this decision holds, which I can also quite clearly see. That’s what interests me. What about “prove the scientific method without axioms or circular reasoning?” What about “embyos are genetically disctinct memeber of the H. sapiens species and those pesky human right thingies applied to all H. sapiens?” > [@](#): > > I’m talking about things like It’s Super Important That Woman Are Fully Covered At All Times. Really? Society seems to go along just fine without that rule. And the women seem pretty happy. I’m pretty sure that’s just your little believy and I don’t care about your little believy. And I think it’s something you cannot and should not impose on people. Even if they want to be fully covered? You wanna tell others how to dress (especially if they err on the side of caution, i.e. too much clothing)? I mean, not trying to force anyone to do it, but simply be allowed to dress in whatever the fuck way they want for whatever the fuck reason they want? > [@](#): > > But it becomes exponentially dumber when you suggest everyone must live by this rule or they should be punished, or they should die, or we’re going to blow people up until you live by the rule. > > Then it becomes **The Dumbest Idea Ever Thought.** > > And then the ridicule, oh, the ridicule, is never ever ever ever more deserved. But, you can see, that even if you were demonstrably 100% right, constantly mocking people is not going to do anyhting but antagonize them. If your plan is to make them stop being dicks to you, being a dick yourself isn’t going to work. > [@Musicat](#): > > So the Pope will send a hit squad with kalashnikovs if I draw him? Halberds, dude; it’s [halberds](https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1350/1276935120_f51e4d0188.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/52 "2015-01-18T20:43:56Z")
[Bird Breeding is anti-Islamic.](http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/isis-executes-pigeon-bird-breeders-diyala-iraq-n287421) > [@](#): > > From the article: The popular hobby is in the sights of extremist Islamist fighters, who this week rounded up 15 boys and young men in the eastern province of Diyala for pursuing a pastime now deemed un-Islamic. Three have already been executed, according to a security official in the area who spoke to NBC News on condition of anonymity. > > Abu Abdullah, a 52-year-old farmer, told NBC News about the moment earlier this week that six gunmen barged into his home and dragged away his oldest son, who is 21. > > “My son was standing beside me. I asked them why, and they said, 'He is not following the real Islam, he must be punished for being a pigeon breeder. This habit is taking him away from worshiping Allah,” Abdullah said on the telephone." ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/53 "2015-01-18T22:19:20Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > There are points to be made on either side of that debate. > > One example, I’m not a Hindu. I find the Hindu religion to be particularly unnecessary- any polytheistic faith looks the same to me. It’s an amalgamation of a bunch of unrelated myths, then combined together and told as one mythology, one pantheon. Nothing to be revered, nothing to be taken as infallible truth. But where is the hatred, the insults, the warfare between folks like me, and folks that are Hindu? There really isn’t any. > > Why is Hinduism, something I find patently ridiculous, not high on my list of grievances with religion? > > Well, there aren’t a bunch of Hindus running around demanding that everyone else convert to Hinduism, or die, or suffer for eternity in hellfire. There aren’t a bunch of Hindus in my country who are demanding their silly beliefs become laws. > > So, if every religion acted in a similar fashion, that is, assimilate and respect the culture you’re in, don’t demand your beliefs are followed by everyone, and quit fearmongering with the idea that everyone must be like you to be a good person, or to live well, or to live at all, then religion would be like astrology to me. More or less harmless, but also pointless nonsense. > > It becomes a real, major problem when religions **insist**. > > They insist, and impose, and decree, and contradict, and legislate, and restrict, and threaten, and bully, and accuse. > > They insist you follow their ways, or else. They decree what morality is for everyone. They impose their views in the workplace, in the private home, in the public square. They contradict themselves whenever it is convenient. They legislate out secular ideas and impose religious ones. They bully those who don’t fit into their paradigm. They accuse others of being sinful, dangerous. It is they who are dangerous. > > Hinduism isn’t sinless, it has its own problems, within its own society, and it too needs to grow out of its infancy. But I don’t have Hindu suicide bombers in my nation. I don’t have fundamentalist Hindus demanding I follow their codes and beliefs. I don’t have a majority of Hindus imposing their views on a secular nation. So, I don’t insult Hindus, generally speaking, my views in this post nonwithstanding. > > They don’t deserve it- their ideas, however wacky to me, don’t harm me or my society. > > When it comes to some sects of Christianity or Islam, they are quite harmful. Very supremacist ideologies- you’re inferior to me unless you are like me. Our moral superiority gives us a pass to legislate your private morality, to impose it upon you without your consent. It’s fascist and xenophobic and condescending and hateful and snide. > > Not everyone who is a Christian or a Muslim is like that, but enough of them are, and enough of them make enough of a bloody mess, sometimes literally, that it deserves to be called out. > > Such ridiculousness deserves to be deeply insulted, because mockery is a far more gentle weapon than a pipe bomb. > > It deserves to be ridiculed in the public square, day in, and day out. It doesn’t deserve any special respect. And if the day should come that Hindus and astrologers and palm readers and lucky-rabbits-foot wearers try to blow up churches or schools or other buildings, they will experience the same level of mockery. > > Until then, it’s just a difference in personal views, something I couldn’t care less about. /\very good response ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/54 "2015-01-19T08:10:39Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Religion? It shouldn’t be exempt qua religion. However, if you constantly offend a group people, making fun of something they consider important for them, moreso if such group of people if currently being discriminated and treated as second class citizens; then not expecting some kind of reaction is stupid. > If I spit on the UFC heavyweght’s champion’s girlfirend’s face and he punches me and breaks my nose, I can legally say he was wrong, however, morally I was and asshole and should’ve thought about the real-life consequences of my actions and not the the only-works-in-theory world of anonymous message boards. > Freedom of speech? All the way > Being a dick (especially with the opressed) and not expecting consequences? Stupid > > Maybe I could go to the US and go to a “black” neighbourhood and start telling passersby “you know that very possibly one (or some) of your great-great-grand-mothers was raped by her owner, when, you know, legally she was like a chair you could buy or sell?”…yeah, it would go very well. Maybe you could go with me a defend me by saying “dude, freedom of speech, what he’s saying is scientifically true”. If someone went into a mosque and waved cartoons of Mohammed around, it would not go well, and the guy wouldn’t get much sympathy. But all of France is not a mosque. Your way would shut down any speech some group doesn’t like. Back in the early '60s good Catholic Chicago cops arrested Lenny Bruce for making jokes about the Pope. I’m sure they were truly offended. So, was Bruce wrong? Forget about the legality of it, was he wrong to make jokes that offended? > [@](#): > > Even if they want to be fully covered? > You wanna tell others how to dress (especially if they err on the side of caution, i.e. too much clothing)? I mean, not trying to force anyone to do it, but simply be allowed to dress in whatever the fuck way they want for whatever the fuck reason they want? You realize that women who don’t dress the way the men command get arrested or worse? Not to mention social pressure. In my neighborhood there are plenty of Muslim women, and some are covered. No one objects, especially because we have ways of supporting people who want to get out of abusive relationships, if that is the reason for their dress. In Saudi Arabia, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/55 "2015-01-19T08:38:31Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Religion? It shouldn’t be exempt qua religion. However, if you constantly offend a group people, making fun of something they consider important for them, moreso if such group of people if currently being discriminated and treated as second class citizens; then not expecting some kind of reaction is stupid. But what we have here is this group of people telling us, “you _can’t_ say/draw/depict/joke about this”, and who are willing to get violent if we don’t. What, exactly, is supposed to be done about that? A “general display of free speech”? No, I’m sorry, when someone tells us “your rights do not apply to this”, it is our responsibility to stand up and say, “Yes, yes it does”. If these guys are willing to kill over this, it is our responsibility as citizens in a democracy to step up and say, “No, you will not silence us”. Yeah, it’s gonna hurt some feelings. That’s unfortunate. But the alternative is even more unfortunate. > [@](#): > > If I spit on the UFC heavyweght’s champion’s girlfirend’s face and he punches me and breaks my nose, I can legally say he was wrong, however, morally I was and asshole and should’ve thought about the real-life consequences of my actions and not the the only-works-in-theory world of anonymous message boards. Oh come on, you seriously don’t see the difference between these different actions? In many states, spitting on someone counts as straight-up battery. But what if you talked shit about her to his face and he punches you? He’s not just legally in the wrong, he’s _morally_ in the wrong. You don’t respond to words, even nasty, hateful words, with violence. It doesn’t matter that what you say is offensive. But this is even a step further removed. You’re not insulting their girlfriends. You’re violating a religious tenet that _they_ hold. Also, potentially insulting a religious figure of theirs, but he’s been dead for over a thousand years and given his position can probably handle a little ribbing. But they cannot force us to abide by their religious doctrine. And if they try to, I feel that we are morally obligated to protect our basic, fundamental human rights and freedoms by pushing back. If they tell us “you cannot draw pictures of our prophet because it’s against our religion”, we have an obligation to do exactly that, to make it perfectly clear that we will not be silenced, and that _they will not take our rights from us_. Islam doesn’t get to be a sacred cow, safe from being mocked or parodied. Nothing does, no matter how dear people hold it. And those who hold things of theirs up like that merely demand that we mock and parody them. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/56 "2015-01-19T12:28:09Z")
I’ve put a lot less thought into this than other posters here, but I just think it’s a funny juxtaposition for the leader of the religion of “turn the other cheek” to be all, “You mess with the Papal Bull, you get the horns.” ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/57 "2015-01-19T14:12:21Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If someone went into a mosque and waved cartoons of Mohammed around, it would not go well, and the guy wouldn’t get much sympathy. But all of France is not a mosque. Your way would shut down any speech some group doesn’t like. I’m not saying “don’t make jokes that offend”. I’m saying: a) Don’t be dick (especially to those who are treated as econd-class citizens in your country). Being legally correct doesn’t mean it’s the wisest choice morally. b) If you’re a dick, even if legally, don’t be surprised that people get angry What you think aout the final part about the black neighbourhood? > [@](#): > > Back in the early '60s good Catholic Chicago cops arrested Lenny Bruce for making jokes about the Pope. I’m sure they were truly offended. So, was Bruce wrong? Forget about the legality of it, was he wrong to make jokes that offended? Legally wrong? With today’s standards? Absolutley not Depnding on the specific circumnstances he might’ve been a dick Arrested? Wrong. > [@](#): > > You realize that women who don’t dress the way the men command get arrested or worse? Not to mention social pressure. In my neighborhood there are plenty of Muslim women, and some are covered. No one objects, especially because we have ways of supporting people who want to get out of abusive relationships, if that is the reason for their dress. In Saudi Arabia, not so much. But what about Fatima Farach, M. D. from London or Paris? Can she dress whatver the fuck way she wants? [QUOTE] > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > But what we have here is this group of people telling us, “you _can’t_ say/draw/depict/joke about this”, and who are willing to get violent if we don’t. What, exactly, is supposed to be done about that? A “general display of free speech”? No, I’m sorry, when someone tells us “your rights do not apply to this”, it is our responsibility to stand up and say, “Yes, yes it does”. If these guys are willing to kill over this, it is our responsibility as citizens in a democracy to step up and say, “No, you will not silence us”. Yeah, it’s gonna hurt some feelings. That’s unfortunate. But the alternative is even more unfortunate. As a general idea, I agree. However, freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from consequences. Imagine you left your cell pone on a park bench and three hours later you came back and it wasn’t there (cuz it was stolen). Could you imagine getting much sympathy for saying “someone infringed on my property rights?”. Of course, legally, nobody should take your pone, but in the real world of real people you know that leaving valuables in the open mean you might lose them. If somebody came to me at work and said “you know, today I masturbated while thinking I was raping your 4-year-old daughter. Man, was it good, she moaned so loud, dude”. He didn’t do anything nut if I punched him in the face or shoved him to the ground I don’t think the right response would be "dude, freedom of speech, he dind’t do anything. Yup, he dind’t do anything, but he was a dick. > [@](#): > > Oh come on, you seriously don’t see the difference between these different actions? In many states, spitting on someone counts as straight-up battery. But what if you talked shit about her to his face and he punches you? He’s not just legally in the wrong, he’s _morally_ in the wrong. You don’t respond to words, even nasty, hateful words, with violence. It doesn’t matter that what you say is offensive. You’re a better man than most. Almost every single person I know would’ve say “you had it coming”, legal issues notwithstanding. > [@](#): > > But this is even a step further removed. You’re not insulting their girlfriends. You’re violating a religious tenet that _they_ hold. Also, potentially insulting a religious figure of theirs, but he’s been dead for over a thousand years and given his position can probably handle a little ribbing. But they cannot force us to abide by their religious doctrine. And if they try to, I feel that we are morally obligated to protect our basic, fundamental human rights and freedoms by pushing back. If they tell us “you cannot draw pictures of our prophet because it’s against our religion”, we have an obligation to do exactly that, to make it perfectly clear that we will not be silenced, and that _they will not take our rights from us_. Religious doctrine? Hell no. Being purposely a dick because you can, especially againt people who are discriminated? Hell no There is no “potentially insulting”, it’s straight up (legally) insulting. You’re from the only-on-anonymous-message-boards-reality school of thought that because something is legal it’s always 100% OK to do it. Yup, I’m going to the cáncer Ward of the hospital and tell al the patients every day that they will possibly die son. > [@](#): > > Islam doesn’t get to be a sacred cow, safe from being mocked or parodied. Nothing does, no matter how dear people hold it. And those who hold things of theirs up like that merely demand that we mock and parody them. Sacred cow? No. I’m left to wonder how you actually are in real life if you actually believe that “_nothing [is safe from being mocked], no matter how dear people hold it. And those who hold things of theirs up like that merely demand that we mock and parody them_”. What a massive dick you must be if you get out of your ways to specifically insult thing people hold dear. Do you tell your wife “man, those stretch marks are really ugly, how do you ever look at yourself in the mirror. No bikinis for you, I guess”. Do you tell the neighbours “I’m glad your son died quickly of his disease. You dodged a massive financial bullet. Think about the college money you saved. I see a second honey moon coming from the life insurance money,”? I hope it’s just a case of web-cojones > [@Double\_Foolscap](#): > > I’ve put a lot less thought into this than other posters here, but I just think it’s a funny juxtaposition for the leader of the religion of “turn the other cheek” to be all, “You mess with the Papal Bull, you get the horns.” He’s merely stating that he is a human being with shortcomings, not saying it’s the right thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/58 "2015-01-19T15:08:36Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > As a general idea, I agree. > However, freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from consequences. Yes, and in a civilized society, those consequences _do not include murder, assault, or battery_. > [@](#): > > You’re a better man than most. > Almost every single person I know would’ve say “you had it coming”, legal issues notwithstanding. Meh. Better is relative. > [@](#): > > Religious doctrine? Hell no. > Being purposely a dick because you can, especially againt people who are discriminated? Hell no > There is no “potentially insulting”, it’s straight up (legally) insulting. > You’re from the only-on-anonymous-message-boards-reality school of thought that because something is legal it’s always 100% OK to do it. > Yup, I’m going to the cáncer Ward of the hospital and tell al the patients every day that they will possibly die son. You seem to be missing the crucial part of this. Tact. Case in point: > [@](#): > > I’m left to wonder how you actually are in real life if you actually believe that “_nothing [is safe from being mocked], no matter how dear people hold it. And those who hold things of theirs up like that merely demand that we mock and parody them_”. What a massive dick you must be if you get out of your ways to specifically insult thing people hold dear. It’s not about insulting things people hold dear. Particularly not on a personal level. But on a societal level, on a media level, the things we aren’t allowed to talk about can all too often be the things we _need_ to talk about. I try to avoid mocking or belittling Islam in front of my Muslim friends. But when it comes to the media, people saying “we hold this doctrine dear, therefore you are not allowed to make images of this public religious figure” _must be fought against_. These people are trying to curtail free speech, and not for the sake of not hurting people. Not for the sake of protecting people from abuse and insults (you may have noticed that in every one of your examples, it’s a profoundly personal matter, having to do with private people who may not deserve it whatsoever), but for the sake of their totalitarian religious doctrine. In the face of that, how do we react? A general “[support free speech](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuZhcUdEUPA)” protest? No. The only meaningful response to this is to stand up and say what they don’t want us to be able to say. To say, “I’m sorry to those this offends, but they want us to not be allowed to say this, and we _cannot_ allow that.” I don’t think anyone, regardless of how violently they would react in their own, personal case, wants it not to be allowed to insult someone’s girlfriend in the abstract. I don’t think anyone is calling for the illegalization of cancer jokes. If everyone was as touchy as islamists, Frankie Boyle would be out of a job, wouldn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/59 "2015-01-19T16:10:21Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Yes, and in a civilized society, those consequences _do not include murder, assault, or battery_. Agreed, especially on the murder thingy. > [@](#): > > Meh. Better is relative. Better than me on these specific points. > [@](#): > > You seem to be missing the crucial part of this. Tact. Case in point: Agreed > [@](#): > > It’s not about insulting things people hold dear. Particularly not on a personal level. But on a societal level, on a media level, the things we aren’t allowed to talk about can all too often be the things we _need_ to talk about. I try to avoid mocking or belittling Islam in front of my Muslim friends. But when it comes to the media, people saying “we hold this doctrine dear, therefore you are not allowed to make images of this public religious figure” _must be fought against_. These people are trying to curtail free speech, and not for the sake of not hurting people. Not for the sake of protecting people from abuse and insults (you may have noticed that in every one of your examples, it’s a profoundly personal matter, having to do with private people who may not deserve it whatsoever), but for the sake of their totalitarian religious doctrine. I think we’re getting closer. I will galdly support anyone who fights the concept of not mocking certain people/ideas, i.e. printing images of Muhammad even if for Muslims it is wrong to do it. It’s imposible to say somthing in public without offending someone. My rant is against specifically mocking for the point of insulting, without irony or intelligence. But, legally, plastering the walls of a mostly muslim neighbourhood with images of Muhammad raping a pig while wiping is ass with the Koran is, to say the least, an uncivil use of your freedom. I fully get the point of fighting specifically against a proposed prohibition/ban ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928/60 "2015-01-19T21:54:44Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > [Bird Breeding is anti-Islamic.](http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/isis-executes-pigeon-bird-breeders-diyala-iraq-n287421) Can I borrow a cup of what-the-fuck? I thought I had enough to last the week, but I ended up using it all on that article. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-religious-idea-of-the-day/709928.md?page=4)