# Stupid Republican idea of the day **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 26, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897 "2009-03-26T18:48:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/101 "2009-05-02T02:58:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, in order to support your view of this trivial incident, you insist that I carefully review the facts of this minor footnote to history. Perhaps then, I might better appreciate your stance on this utterly vapid event? > > And to accomplish this end, you would have me read one of the snottiest pedants to ever tap a typewriter key? Hey, his was merely the first suitable account I happened upon while Googling. 😃 And it matters not in the slightest whether you find that incident trivial, vapid or of no import whatsoever. What does matter is that I don’t agree, and that it was based upon my assessment of the likelihood of (apparently sucessful) chicanery on Hillary’s part with regard to that incident that I posted the comments that **Equipoise** listed above. So I guess I’m gonna have to retract that ‘men of good character’ part where you’re concerned, given that rather than acknowledge that I never so much as insinuated that Hillary Clinton killed Vince Foster you’ve simply switched instead to quibbling over whether the events that did trigger my comments really happened or not. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > I guess I have to deny his credibility because he never bothered to write a correction… Why should he write a correction? He laid out an accurate accounting of the events that transpired, and as it happens the independent counsel could find no proof that document tampering/removal occurred as a result of those events. How is anything that Safire wrote negated by the fact that no forensic proof of wrongdoing could be found? And besides, denials and lack of forensic evidence does not innocence make, as we all found out once the existence of a certain blue dress finally came to light. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/102 "2009-05-02T03:12:19Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Why should he write a correction? As you seem to be logically challenged, I have to say that he needed to make a correction since you still thought that his points from the past before the trials and inquiries are still valid. (Time lines are deadly for many right wingers still…) > [@](#): > > And besides, denials and lack of forensic evidence does not innocence make, as we all found out once the existence of a certain blue dress finally came to light. 😃 It was Kenneth Star’s fishing expedition that found the dress, Kenneth Star himself had to say later that there was \*\*nothing \*\*to be found regarding the Foster’s papers or his death. The “blue dress” of the Vince Foster papers failed to show up after several investigations. After the verdict of the courts, it is only deluded beings the ones that keep on trying to make something out of that incident. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/103 "2009-05-02T03:25:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, this whole Vince Foster diversion into nowheresville…is this the stupid idea for Friday, or Saturday? Let’s run it through ‘a dynamic, forward-looking organization that will amplify the common-sense and wisdom of our fellow citizens through a grassroots dialogue with Republican leaders’, and see what pops out the other end. Surely the [National Council for a New America](http://republicanwhip.house.gov/newsroom/2009/04/national-council-for-a-new-america-formed.html) will save us all. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/104 "2009-05-02T03:27:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …So I guess I’m gonna have to retract that ‘men of good character’ part where you’re concerned… Bereft. Despondent. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/105 "2009-05-02T03:35:27Z")
[Looks up from his beer, Republicans still idiots, steals a chip from **Elucidator** ’s plate and goes back to muttering] ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/106 "2009-05-02T03:58:09Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > …Surely the [National Council for a New America](http://republicanwhip.house.gov/newsroom/2009/04/national-council-for-a-new-america-formed.html) will save us all. The site is a bleeding miracle, **Squink**. It burbles on and on in a sensible, mature tone about absolutely nothing. There are no ideas. Not that there are no new ideas, there aren’t any old ones, either. Its a stunning effort, really. There are no provocative positions. There are no controversial notions. It is a sombre, sensible, and clear-eyed vacuum. However did they manage to assemble all those cliches without accidentally including an idea? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/107 "2009-05-02T05:11:05Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Hey, his was merely the first suitable account I happened upon while Googling. 😃 > > And it matters not in the slightest whether you find that incident trivial, vapid or of no import whatsoever. What does matter is that I don’t agree, and that it was based upon my assessment of the likelihood of (apparently sucessful) chicanery on Hillary’s part with regard to that incident that I posted the comments that **Equipoise** listed above. What matters is that it _didn’t fucking happen_. Did. Not. Happen. Happened? It did not. > [@](#): > > Why should he write a correction? Because it didn’t happen. > [@](#): > > And besides, denials and lack of forensic evidence does not innocence make Actually, yes it does. That’s the way it works in America. No evidence = presumption of evidence. Starr said he found no evidence whatsoever. Neither forensic or testimonial. Absolutely no reason to believe it happened. You are making accusations of evidence tampering against Hillary based on nothing. It’s beyond asinine to make totally unsupported allegations, and then say that everybody else has to prove they’re false. Let me tell you, if your boy, Starr, couldn’t find anything or get anybody to squeal, there was _less_ than nothing to it. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/108 "2009-05-02T05:39:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What matters is that it _didn’t fucking happen_. Did. Not. Happen. Happened? It did not. The files disappeared and turned up a week later in the Clinton living quarters. That created suspicion. That suspicion is what I referred to. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Actually, yes it does. That’s the way it works in America. No evidence = presumption of evidence. In a court of law, yes. In the court of public opinion, not so much. For example, how do you feel re ‘Bush lied’ to get us into Iraq? There is absolutely no way to know what Bush’s thinking was, and there was evidence, believed by most of the world’s intelligence agencies and Bill and Hillary Clinton themselves, that Iraq possessed or was developing WMD. But none were found so the overwhelming attitude around here is that “Bush lied”. Where’s your forensic evidence there? > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Starr said he found no evidence whatsoever. Neither forensic or testimonial. Absolutely no reason to believe it happened. Correct. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > You are making accusations of evidence tampering against Hillary based on nothing. Not true. I’m making allegations of mysterious happenings with regard to files from Foster’s office. (Which aren’t actually ‘allegations’ at all, but matters of fact.) > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It’s beyond asinine to make totally unsupported allegations, and then say that everybody else has to prove they’re false. The allegations I’ve made are totally supported by the facts. The inference to be drawn from them is obviously a matter of political persuasion. > [@\[quote=Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > ]Let me tell you, if your boy, Starr, couldn’t find anything or get anybody to squeal, there was _less_ than nothing to it. That simply isn’t true. There may have been nothing to it, or there may have been something to it which was successfully removed or destroyed and which subsequently prevented it from coming to light. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/109 "2009-05-02T05:41:04Z")
> [@](#): > > The files disappeared and turned up a week later in the Clinton living quarters. No they didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/110 "2009-05-02T06:04:17Z")
Is it your contention that Safire’s chronology is in error? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/111 "2009-05-02T06:11:24Z")
His chronology of what? Nothing happened. Nothing “disappeared” and “reappeared.” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/112 "2009-05-02T06:22:26Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > His chronology of what? Nothing happened. Nothing “disappeared” and “reappeared.” Actually, I was under the impression that some billing records from the Rose Law firm were discovered in Mrs. Clinton’s personal spaces several months after they were said to be unfindable (in response to a subpeona from – somebody; I don’t recall who, or why they were wanted). Nothing to do with Vince Foster, of course, but it certainly undercuts the accuracy of the overly broad statement _Nothing “disappeared” and “reappeared.”_ ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/113 "2009-05-02T06:24:27Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > In a court of law, yes. In the court of public opinion, not so much. For example, how do you feel re ‘Bush lied’ to get us into Iraq? There is absolutely no way to know what Bush’s thinking was, and there was evidence, believed by most of the world’s intelligence agencies and Bill and Hillary Clinton themselves, that Iraq possessed or was developing WMD. But none were found so the overwhelming attitude around here is that “Bush lied”. Where’s your forensic evidence there? Things like that is what make me suspect that Starving Artist is really a plant trying his damnedest to make right wingers look bad. 🙂 The choice regarding what Bush was thinking is still between being a liar or an incompetent fool. You are trying to convince us that there is an advantage on the poison selected. However, the Downing street memos tell me that: > **[downingstreetmemo.com](http://downingstreetmemo.com/memos.html)** > > This domain may be for sale! > [@](#): > > There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime’s record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action. So, there were many times from there when Bush told lies to the American people, a few weeks before the war he said that “we’ll call for a vote.” (for the second UN resolution, it never took place even though he remarked that it would take place no matter what) and “I’ve not made up our mind about military action.” But the decision to go to war was already made. A liar or an incompetent? Does it have to be a **choice**? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/114 "2009-05-02T06:30:05Z")
I knew a woman once whose philosophy, if caught red-handed at something she shouldn’t be doing, was to deny, deny, deny…under the belief that blatant and continued denials whould eventually cause the accuser to doubt what they’d seen with their own eyes. That won’t work with me. To wit, from William Safire in the _New York Times_: [bolding mine] (1) Foster’s body is discovered July 20. White House aides, unobserved, are in and out of his office that night and next day. **His possession of the Whitewater file is kept secret.** (2) On Thursday, July 22, White House Counsel Bernard Nussbaum, with intimidated cops nearby, **gives Foster’s box of Whitewater files to Ms. Williams** (not, as was long said, to the Clintons’ lawyer). (3) After talking to Hillary Clinton, **Ms. Williams locks the files in a closet in the third-floor family quarters of the White House** , to which she had the only key. (4) **Not until Tuesday, July 27, are the Whitewater files retrieved by the lawyer, then Robert Barnett.** So, a) Foster had files regarding Whitewater that had been kept secret. b) a box of Whitewater files was given to Williams. c) After consulting with Hillary Clinton, Williams, who had the only key, locked the box in a closet in the White House living quarters. d) The files were finally turned over to Barnett on July 27, a week after Foster’s suicide. Now a box of Whitewater files may be construed as nothing but thin air to you, but to me it’s a box of Whitewater files. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/115 "2009-05-02T06:35:32Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Actually, I was under the impression that some billing records from the Rose Law firm were discovered in Mrs. Clinton’s personal spaces several months after they were said to be unfindable (in response to a subpeona from – somebody; I don’t recall who, or why they were wanted). > > Nothing to do with Vince Foster, of course, but it certainly undercuts the accuracy of the overly broad statement _Nothing “disappeared” and “reappeared.”_ IIRC, an office worker later claimed to have misplaced those specific items, in any case the items were produced and the courts decided that there was no evidence even to accuse them of obstruction of justice, and that IMHO was the point of the accusations of Safire and others. An accusation that was not demonstrated even in a court of law. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/116 "2009-05-02T06:46:28Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I knew a woman once whose philosophy, if caught red-handed at something she shouldn’t be doing, was to deny, deny, deny…under the belief that blatant and continued denials whould eventually cause the accuser to doubt what they’d seen with their own eyes. > > That won’t work with me.. That is ok, you are on record of not believing the conclusions of judges and prosecutors after the evidence was already reviewed. Yours would be a proud position for a “birther” to have (in the sense that they are proud to ignore even court decisions and the opinion of prosecutors). However, it does make many independents and reasonable Republicans to realize how doomed they are if you are a typical example of the conservative base. Keep up the good work. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/117 "2009-05-02T06:47:41Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Things like that is what make me suspect that Starving Artist is really a plant trying his damnedest to make right wingers look bad. 🙂 > > The choice regarding what Bush was thinking is still between being a liar or an incompetent fool. You are trying to convince us that there is an advantage on the poison selected. > > However, the Downing street memos tell me that: > > [downingstreetmemo.com](http://downingstreetmemo.com/memos.html) > So, there were many times from there when Bush told lies to the American people, a few weeks before the war he said that “we’ll call for a vote.” (for the second UN resolution, it never took place even though he remarked that it would take place no matter what) and “I’ve not made up our mind about military action.” > > But the decision to go to war was already made. A liar or an incompetent? Does it have to be a **choice**? There have been many times in my life when I may have wanted to do something, but thought a different approach may be better. Then I may have decided on a different approach than that, and then I may have gone back to the original plan after all. All your memo shows is that Bush felt different ways at different times, no doubt influenced by the hundreds or thousands of bits of information coming in with regard to events transpiring either in or with regard to events in Iraq. The big lie propagated around here is that Bush, knowing full well that Hussein didn’t have any WMD, lied and told the American people that he did and that going to war against Iraq was therefore justified and necessary. To date I have seen no probative (i.e., proving) evidence that he knew or did any such thing, and barring personal one-on-one confession to the contrary from Bush himself or unquestionable mind-reading ability, there is absolutely no way for anyone to say with certainty that Bush lied about WMD to get us into war with Iraq. **Dio** claimed that without evidence the presumption was toward innocence, and I merely used the opinion of so many like you (and him) around here with regard to Bush to show that such a presumption is hardly de rigueur around here. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/118 "2009-05-02T06:50:30Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > **Dio** claimed that without evidence the presumption was toward innocence, and I merely used the opinion of so many like you (and him) around here with regard to Bush to show that such a presumption is hardly de rigueur around here. 🙂 Uh uh. Just a simple question: Did Bush said that he was going to get a second UN resolution, no matter what? Did he told us the truth? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/119 "2009-05-02T06:55:55Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > That is ok, you are on record of not believing the conclusions of judges and prosecutors after the evidence was already reviewed. I be very interested in knowing how you come to this conclusion. I obviously accept that no evidence of chicanery was discovered, and I’ve said as much. Still, that hardly proves no such chicanery took place, and just like with guys and “Bush lied”, I’m free to make that observation. Still, you have seen no call by me to press charges against her, have you? And if not, wouldn’t that indicate that I accept the conclusions of the authorities that no evidence of wrongdoing that would hold up in court could be found, despite the fact that I personally believe that evidence tampering either took place or was deemed unnecessary prior to its having been turned over to the authorities. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/120 "2009-05-02T07:02:12Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I be very interested in knowing how you come to this conclusion. I obviously accept that no evidence of chicanery was discovered, and I’ve said as much. Still, that hardly proves no such chicanery took place, and just like with guys and “Bush lied”, I’m free to make that observation. Still, you have seen no call by me to press charges against her, have you? Double jeopardy and all that jazz, but that is also my point. You are beating a dead horse. As for Bush, the judgment of history is still coming. And I’m a Historian > [@](#): > > And if not, wouldn’t that indicate that I accept the conclusions of the authorities that no evidence of wrongdoing that would hold up in court could be found, despite the fact that I personally believe that evidence tampering either took place or was deemed unnecessary prior to its having been turned over to the authorities. As a wise man said, you are entitled to your opinions but not the facts. And the fact is that no evidence of Chicanery regarding Foster’s documents was found by the courts, several independent investigations, or by even the investigation by Kenneth Star himself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897.md?page=7)