# Stupid school administrators and uniforms **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 11, 2003, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-school-administrators-and-uniforms/218265 "2003-12-11T03:53:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Astra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f14d63/32.png) [@Astra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astra)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-school-administrators-and-uniforms/218265/61 "2003-12-17T04:01:53Z")
Is it specifically against the rules of your company? I’m sure it is in writing somewhere. In this case, many of the “rules” apparently weren’t written down anywhere. Sounds like Calvinball to me. ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-school-administrators-and-uniforms/218265/62 "2003-12-17T11:37:05Z")
OK, if I had out literature at my workplace during lunch time saying that my company is polluting the environment and that our CEO is sleeping with his secretary - can they legimately fire me? ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-school-administrators-and-uniforms/218265/63 "2003-12-17T12:19:56Z")
**county** , the difference between passing literature out at your company and passing out literature at school is that most companies have a written policy regarding solicitation and pamphleteering. Most companies don’t allow it on company premises. So, yes, they can fire you. School property is a different kettle of fish. Kids must attend school until they graduate or turn 16. Work, OTOH, is voluntary. You don’t have to work for that company. You’re free to find other employment. That said, this does sound like a game of Calvinball. I hope the kid can get away from these people when he graduates and goes to college. Robin ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Serpentine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3be4f8/32.png) [@Silver\_Serpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Serpentine)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-school-administrators-and-uniforms/218265/64 "2003-12-17T12:29:59Z")
I’m okay with dress codes, as long as they’re equally enforced. Which they weren’t, in my HS. Once, I got out of having my trench coat taken away because I counted how many girls baring their stomachs I walked past on the way to the Principal’s Office. 10. After the Get Into Class bell had already rung. I missed nearly 30 minutes of my German class so I could be taken to my Principal’s Office for wearing my coat inside (maybe if it was warmer than 40 in the building [I kid you not], I wouldn’t wear my coat inside). I have no idea how those girls wore those clothes in that temperature. ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-school-administrators-and-uniforms/218265/65 "2003-12-17T12:38:04Z")
The question I am posing is does an organization have the right to determine what goes on at the organization, on organization property AND does that right extend to elementary and high schools (colleges pretty much encourage freedom of speech). Perhaps I should be in General Questions, but this discussion seems to be going in the direction of the kid’s absolute right to free speech and I am not sure it exists in this situation. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-school-administrators-and-uniforms/218265/66 "2003-12-17T12:54:13Z")
How does it not exist? Let’s assume for the sake of argument that he was told not to do it and he did it anyway. THEN the administration would be justified in punishing him for disobedience. The problem is that I don’t see where he was told not to do it in advance. He passed out copies of that newspaper article and was punished after the fact. He got four days of in-school suspension for doing that. As has been pointed out to you before, students have freedom of speech while in school and have since the 1960s. It seems to me that the boy is being punished for criticizing the administration, not for any actions he’s doing. Let me pose this hypothetical. Let’s say the boy was handing out Sierra Club or some other school-neutral material. Should the principal punish the boy just as harshly as he did for distributing copies of an article critical to the administration? And you may be interested in [this quote](http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/tinker.html) from the _Tinker_ case: > [@](#): > > In our system, state-operated schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students in school as well as out of school are “persons” under our Constitution. They are possessed of fundamental rights which the State must respect, just as they themselves must respect their obligations to the State. In our system, students may not be regarded as closed-circuit recipients of only that which the State chooses to communicate. They may not be confined to the expression of those sentiments that are officially approved. In the absence of a specific showing of constitutionally valid reasons to regulate their speech, students are entitled to freedom of expression of their views. As Judge Gewin, speaking for the Fifth Circuit, said, school officials cannot suppress “expressions of feelings with which they do not wish to contend.” Burnside v. Byars, supra, at 749. Does that answer your question? Robin ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-school-administrators-and-uniforms/218265/67 "2003-12-17T13:24:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MsRobyn \* > \*\*How does it not exist? > > Let’s assume for the sake of argument that he was told not to do it and he did it anyway. THEN the administration would be justified in punishing him for disobedience. > > The problem is that I don’t see where he was told not to do it in advance. He passed out copies of that newspaper article and was punished after the fact. He got four days of in-school suspension for doing that. > > As has been pointed out to you before, students have freedom of speech while in school and have since the 1960s. It seems to me that the boy is being punished for criticizing the administration, not for any actions he’s doing. > > Let me pose this hypothetical. Let’s say the boy was handing out Sierra Club or some other school-neutral material. Should the principal punish the boy just as harshly as he did for distributing copies of an article critical to the administration? > > And you may be interested in [this quote](http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/tinker.html) from the _Tinker_ case: > > Does that answer your question? > > Robin \*\* No. A student would probably not be allowed to hand out KKK literature at school despite such literature being protected under freedom of speech. The question then becomes where is the line drawn? how much criticism and what type is acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-school-administrators-and-uniforms/218265/68 "2003-12-17T14:09:30Z")
**county** , _Tinker_ says that the event has to create an environment that is disruptive to the process of learning. Not “might create” or “has the potential to create” but HAS to create. > [@](#): > > In order for the State in the person of school officials to justify prohibition of a particular expression of opinion, it must be able to show that its action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint. Certainly where there is no finding and no showing that engaging in the forbidden conduct would “materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school,” the prohibition cannot be sustained. Burnside v. Byars, supra, at 749. _From the same source as cited above._ I couldn’t find anything at the national ACLU site about this specific case, but in a FAQ about students’ right to free expression, the ACLU answered [thus](http://www.aclu.org/StudentsRights/StudentsRights.cfm?ID=13149&c=159): > [@](#): > > DO I HAVE A RIGHT TO EXPRESS MY OPINIONS AND BELIEFS IN SCHOOL? > Yes. In 1969 in Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District the Supreme Court held that students in public schools – which are run by the government – do not leave their First Amendment rights at the schoolhouse gate. This means that you can express your opinions orally and in writing – in leaflets or on buttons, armbands or T-shirts. > > You have a right to express your opinions as long as you do so in a way that doesn’t “materially and substantially” disrupt classes or other school activities. If you hold a protest on the school steps and block the entrance to the building, school officials can stop you. They can probably also stop you from using language that they think is “vulgar or indecent,” so watch out for the dirty words, OK? > > Also, school officials may not censor only one side of a controversy. If they permit an article in the official school paper that says that premarital sex is bad, they may not censor an article that says premarital sex is good. It still seems to me that Justin was punished for daring to criticize the administration, not for the pamphleteering itself. Robin ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-school-administrators-and-uniforms/218265/69 "2003-12-17T17:20:02Z")
Well, I hesitate to comment on a case that I have not read in it’s entirety, but it seems to me that: “the event has to create an environment that is disruptive to the process of learning.” is a fairly broad criteria, and I expect the court wanted to leave some discretion to the school administration. In any event, the case certainly makes clear that freedom of speech for minors in school is not unfettered. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-school-administrators-and-uniforms/218265/70 "2003-12-17T18:07:07Z")
No one ever said that freedom of expression is to be unfettered. It’s still illegal to yell “fire” in a crowded theater (unless there is an actual fire). That said, however, the point is, it’s the _behavior_ that is to be punished, not the message. Students can protest the war, the administration, or whatever else they feel like. As _Tinker_ makes clear, it’s not up to the administration to pick and choose what _messages_ it will allow. If I put up a soapbox in front of my university library with the idea that I’m going to speak out against the war in Iraq, all I can be punished for is the disruption to the school if I manage to gather a large crowd. The university, being a public entity, cannot censor the message I’m spreading. Marketplace of ideas, and all. Robin ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-school-administrators-and-uniforms/218265/71 "2003-12-17T18:51:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MsRobyn \* > [That said, however, the point is, it’s the _behavior_ that is to be punished, not the message. .Robin \*\* Gotta disagree, based on your quote from the Tinker case: "Certainly where there is no finding and no showing that engaging in the forbidden conduct would “materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school,” the prohibition cannot be sustained. Burnside v. Byars, supra, at 749. " That quote is not saying that the message cannot substantially interfere. Maybe there has been subsequent caselaw or the full text of the case covers it but with the information presented; the school administration is free to assert that the child did in fact interfere with the operation of the school in such a manner as to require discipline. Additionally, I don’t believe that our school system is the appropriate forum for “any” message to be circulated in an unfettered manner (And I believe that Tinker would tend to support that belief). ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-school-administrators-and-uniforms/218265/72 "2003-12-17T21:06:23Z")
I’m not going to sit here and argue with you on this. I’ve explained my position as clearly as I can and am not prepared to spend any more time on it. Robin ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-school-administrators-and-uniforms/218265/73 "2003-12-17T22:24:19Z")
Well, ok, - am I suppose to thank you for your time? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-school-administrators-and-uniforms/218265.md?page=3)