# Stuxnet Worm Used By Israel On Iranian Centrifuges **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuxnet-worm-used-by-israel-on-iranian-centrifuges/569047 "2011-01-26T14:44:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuxnet-worm-used-by-israel-on-iranian-centrifuges/569047/61 "2011-01-29T01:04:26Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I think people like you should be filled with worry and have nothing you can do about it if you want my honest opinion. Look at what you wrote. You are creating this worm vs. ordinance scenario and it is a baseless scenario in two ways. First, war hawks are not using this as a replacement for anything. It is being used in addition to everything. Two posts down you discuss assassinations. We are arming anti-government forces in Iran. We are pressuring for further economic sanctions. We or Israel or whomever else we can get to do it will bomb Iran just as soon as it is feasible. > > Second, here we are in this false versus scenario you are trying to get me to condone, to see the logic of, and people like you have no evidence that Iran really actually is developing nuclear arms. Even at 20% enrichment, which if I remember right is the last big achievement of the Iranians, has several legitimate uses that Iran already engages in. This statement that Iran is a few years away from a weapon has been repeated for far more than a few years. Well do they have it or not? People like you have no plausible way of describing why Iran would be any more destabilizing than it is now. People like you can present no plausible scenario where Iran would first strike with its nuke if it is actually developing one. > > In the meantime, taking say **Sam Stone’s** guesswork to heart, an arm of Iran’s intellectual and technological development is being attacked by thugs. Iran’s crappy leadership can easily point to an outsider that is trying to hurt them and any peaceful revolution can be suppressed under the rubric that these protesters were mislead by foreign agents. So our attacks on an unsubstantiated nuclear program with unsubstantiated consequences is oppressing what I know to be a real anti-government feeling and technological advancement in Iran. Education and resistance are the forces of revolution as we recently learned in Tunisia. The paranoid imagination and shortsightedness of war hawks is guaranteeing that it is more difficult for change to occur in Iran. > > As I said before there are only two ways to stop this from escalating. Iran can develop its nukes and follow the N Korea model or its government can change. That change in the government will not come from us as every revolution of the past 20 years in the Middle East and Eastern Europe has demonstrated. Even Iraq did not stabilize until the serious militia leaders in the country decided to make a government. > > We have competent defenses. We have nothing to fear from an Iranian nuke and Iranian military. We have everything to gain from a well-developed, democratic Iran. Just leave them the fuck alone, gather information and stay on target with what Iran is doing, advance our own tech, and have the faith in people to let them get there. People like me? Thanks a lot! And I do believe that we should worry about Iran acquiring nuclear weapons. I don’t know if we can stop it but we should try. A pariah state like Iran having a couple nuclear weapons is far more worrisome to me than Russia having 3,000 ICBM’s. Its all about _who_ has them more than the fact that they exist to me. I don’t like North Korea having them either. I mean seriously, Iran clearly hates Israel very, very much, even their leadership alludes to the elimination of Israel as a desirable thing constantly. If they were to ever get crazy with the cheese whiz and launch or drop a nuke on Israel, it would spawn a nuclear war. The entire Middle East and the world doesn’t want that. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuxnet-worm-used-by-israel-on-iranian-centrifuges/569047/62 "2011-01-29T01:11:25Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I am not defending Iran. I care about the US involving itself in more death and destruction based on half truths and bad information. I am arguing against the notion that the war hawks among us and our allies are placated by e-warfare. It’s silly given that AFTER Stuxnet an Iranian nuclear scientist was assassinated. > > Also, I labeled the assassins who killed and injured Iranian nuclear scientists as thugs. What the fuck else are they? Heroes? You could invade the country and cause untold death and destruction, or target the actual members of the military-industrial apparatus who are developing the nuclear weapons with precision and no collateral damage. Unless you are the same type of dimwit who wants to put Afghans who kill American soldiers on battlefields on trial for murder, surely you understand the difference between legitimate and illegitimate targets. > [@](#): > > I guess I know my response is a waste of time since apparently Iran is run by “millenial crazies”. This must be another “theory”. Thanks for baseless theory number 3. Yes, keep pretending you’re not running interference for the Iranian government while you deny that the Islamic revolution even happened. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuxnet-worm-used-by-israel-on-iranian-centrifuges/569047/63 "2011-01-29T01:21:55Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Yes, keep pretending you’re not running interference for the Iranian government while you deny that the Islamic revolution even happened. I strongly recommend any of [these](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atypical_antipsychotic) for your problem. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuxnet-worm-used-by-israel-on-iranian-centrifuges/569047/64 "2011-01-29T01:33:24Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I mean seriously, Iran clearly hates Israel very, very much, even their leadership alludes to the elimination of Israel as a desirable thing constantly. If they were to ever get crazy with the cheese whiz and launch or drop a nuke on Israel, it would spawn a nuclear war. The entire Middle East and the world doesn’t want that. Please describe a plausible scenario under which this will happen. You are claiming this is something worth worrying about. I would completely agree with you that we should stop Iran using the best means necessary if you can provide the evidence that this scenario is realistic. This scenario, **Robot’s** millenial theory, even, and this part is sad, the “Iranians are developing a nuclear weapon” theory have no basis in verifiable fact. These are the pillars on top of which killing innocents, arming terrorists, and economic sanctions rest. It’s pathetic, [2003ish](http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-09-08-powell-iraq_x.htm). ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuxnet-worm-used-by-israel-on-iranian-centrifuges/569047/65 "2011-01-29T02:08:32Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Please describe a plausible scenario under which this will happen. You are claiming this is something worth worrying about. I would completely agree with you that we should stop Iran using the best means necessary if you can provide the evidence that this scenario is realistic. > > This scenario, **Robot’s** millenial theory, even, and this part is sad, the “Iranians are developing a nuclear weapon” theory have no basis in verifiable fact. These are the pillars on top of which killing innocents, arming terrorists, and economic sanctions rest. It’s pathetic, [2003ish](http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-09-08-powell-iraq_x.htm). The entire Middle East is worried about this. Read this: [http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2044929,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2044929,00.html) ETA: Tangentially related. Picture the crisis, imagine the scenarios. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuxnet-worm-used-by-israel-on-iranian-centrifuges/569047/66 "2011-01-29T02:15:35Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > the “Iranians are developing a nuclear weapon” theory have no basis in verifiable fact. No, not true. It’s clear that the Iranian government is hiding _something_, or at least acting as if they were. From bulldozing a site that the IAEA wanted to view to, year after year, failing to provide all the data and openness that the IAEA needs to verify the peaceful nature of their program. Concluding, for a fact, that Iran is developing a nuclear weapons program is unsupported. But concluding that they’re acting as if they have nothing to hide is falsified. The simple truth is that we do not know. Anybody who tells you one thing or another, as if it’s a certainty, is trying to sell something. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuxnet-worm-used-by-israel-on-iranian-centrifuges/569047/67 "2011-01-29T03:11:19Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, not true. It’s clear that the Iranian government is hiding _something_, or at least acting as if they were. From bulldozing a site that the IAEA wanted to view to, year after year, failing to provide all the data and openness that the IAEA needs to verify the peaceful nature of their program. Concluding, for a fact, that Iran is developing a nuclear weapons program is unsupported. But concluding that they’re acting as if they have nothing to hide is falsified. > > The simple truth is that we do not know. Anybody who tells you one thing or another, as if it’s a certainty, is trying to sell something. What\* is\* true is that Iran’s government is locked into a pattern of hatred towards Israel, and regularly issues worrying comments to the effect of “getting rid of them”, however people choose to phrase or interpret their unambiguous desires to rid the Middle East of the Israeli “scourge”. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuxnet-worm-used-by-israel-on-iranian-centrifuges/569047/68 "2011-01-29T03:52:41Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Unless you are the same type of dimwit. . . . Conditional expressions do not excuse insults in this forum. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I strongly recommend any of [these](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atypical_antipsychotic) for your problem. Nor do coy links excuse direct insults. Knock it off, both of you. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuxnet-worm-used-by-israel-on-iranian-centrifuges/569047/69 "2011-01-29T17:56:37Z")
> [@](#): > > I am not defending Iran. I care about the US involving itself in more death and destruction based on half truths and bad information. I am arguing against the notion that the war hawks among us and our allies are placated by e-warfare. It’s silly given that AFTER Stuxnet an Iranian nuclear scientist was assassinated. Personally, I think that the simplest explanation of that is that some branch of the Iranian government itself ordered the assassinations to punish the scientists for letting Stuxnet through. But even if it was done by the US or Israel or other western powers, that’s still a separate act from Stuxnet itself. You can’t complain about the bloodshed caused by Stuxnet, because _Stuxnet caused no bloodshed_. It killed _nobody_. It injured _nobody_. It caused pain to _nobody_. And personally, I’m all in favor of things that don’t kill, injure, or hurt anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuxnet-worm-used-by-israel-on-iranian-centrifuges/569047/70 "2011-01-30T02:02:08Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Personally, I think that the simplest explanation of that is that some branch of the Iranian government itself ordered the assassinations to punish the scientists for letting Stuxnet through. Actually the simplest explanation is that the Iranians created Stuxnet to blame a scientist that had been sleeping with Ahmadinejad’s daughter. They then blew him up. > [@Chronos](#): > > But even if it was done by the US or Israel or other western powers, that’s still a separate act from Stuxnet itself. You can’t complain about the bloodshed caused by Stuxnet, because _Stuxnet caused no bloodshed_. It killed _nobody_. It injured _nobody_. It caused pain to _nobody_. And personally, I’m all in favor of things that don’t kill, injure, or hurt anyone. The argument was about this approach as a substitute for other approaches. I also wasn’t remarking on Stuxnet’s damage to people. I was commenting on the thought process that lead to Stuxnet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuxnet-worm-used-by-israel-on-iranian-centrifuges/569047.md?page=3)