# Su-24 buzzes US destroyer: how unusual are such hair-close flybys? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 14, 2016, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/su-24-buzzes-us-destroyer-how-unusual-are-such-hair-close-flybys/752163 "2016-04-14T03:53:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/su-24-buzzes-us-destroyer-how-unusual-are-such-hair-close-flybys/752163/21 "2016-04-17T01:31:40Z")
According to John Kerry, the warship would have [been within its rights](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36050689) to fire on the Russian jets: “under the rules of engagement, that could have been a shoot-down”. Despite the provocation, I don’t suppose it was worth escalating things into a shooting match. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/su-24-buzzes-us-destroyer-how-unusual-are-such-hair-close-flybys/752163/22 "2016-04-17T01:53:20Z")
> [@Grateful-UnDead](#): > > …What is the difference between the Iranian and Russian incidents ?.. Asked and answered right there. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/su-24-buzzes-us-destroyer-how-unusual-are-such-hair-close-flybys/752163/23 "2016-04-17T20:19:59Z")
Hell, when did the US ever shoot down a Russian / Soviet plane, piloted and ID’ed politically as such? Ever? WWI? WWII friendly fire?–Wrong front. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/su-24-buzzes-us-destroyer-how-unusual-are-such-hair-close-flybys/752163/24 "2016-04-18T00:22:08Z")
> [@Grateful-UnDead](#): > > I am pretty confused by this whole incident. > > In 1988 the US Navy shot down an Iranian aircraft which the Navy believed was in attack mode. > > Given the recent incident in which the Russians staged a mock attack on the US destroyer, why did the Navy not shoot the Russians down? > > What is the difference between the Iranian and Russian incidents?.. In the _Vincennes_’s [shootdown of Iran Air Flight 655](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655), the _Vincennes_ had been previously that day involved in a gun battle with Iranian gun boats, and was in hot pursuit of said gunboats into Iranian territorial waters. During said hot pursuit, Flight 655 took off from Bandar Abbas, about ~30 nautical miles away from the action. The flight path was direct Bandar Abbas/Dubai, which unfortunately meant the flight was going to fly very close to the _Vincennes_. Bandar Abbas, like many airfields, is a combination military and civilian airfield. Per the wiki, _Vincennes_ tried to hail the airliner on Guard and several military frequencies, but did not hail the airliner on civilian ATC frequencies. The airliner never responded to the repeated radio queries from _Vincennes_. For whatever reason, the _Vincennes_’s CIC personnel thought the airliner was descending towards them (it wasn’t) and that the airliner was broadcasting a military IFF transponder code (it also wasn’t). Combined, all of these things made the crew think the airliner was a military aircraft attacking them and so they shot the airliner down. Whether a reasonable crew in a similar situation would’ve thought the same thing, is another matter. In the matter of the _Burke_ getting buzzed the other day, no one was shooting at anyone else beforehand, and so far as I know, no one was doing things to indicate that shooting was likely (locking fire control radar in guidance mode, opening bomb bay doors, actually firing weapons). I don’t know whether radio contact was established here or not. The main thing is that, in all of the countless Soviet/Russian buzzings (and U.S. planes returning the favor), I am not aware of either side shooting at each other _recently_. They buzz us, we buzz them; Playboy centerfolds may or may not be shown to each other, and everyone goes on doing what they do. (Shootings used to happen quite a bit during the late 40s through the 60s. And of course there’s KAL 007.) That wasn’t the case in the Persian Gulf between the U.S. and Iran throughout the late 80s when the shootdown occurred. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/su-24-buzzes-us-destroyer-how-unusual-are-such-hair-close-flybys/752163/25 "2016-04-18T00:31:34Z")
There are a few recorded, admitted US shootdowns of Soviet aircraft. [This is a wiki list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-to-air_combat_losses_between_the_Soviet_Union_and_the_United_States) of shootdowns between the two sides. The latest one for the U.S. was [a case of mistaken identity](http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19530727-0) at the end of the Korean War. As far as more silliness during flybys, like the one that sparked the collision between the PRC fighter and U.S. EP-3 that I mentioned, [a Russian SU-27 barrel rolled within 50 feet of a U.S. RC-135 spy plane the other day over the Baltic Sea](http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/16/politics/russian-jet-barrel-rolled-us-aircraft/). As I said before, it’s all fun and games until someone misjudges their skills… ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/su-24-buzzes-us-destroyer-how-unusual-are-such-hair-close-flybys/752163/26 "2016-04-18T00:40:34Z")
Thanks **Gray Ghost.** ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/su-24-buzzes-us-destroyer-how-unusual-are-such-hair-close-flybys/752163/27 "2016-04-18T14:28:23Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > What are you basing this on? I did my military service in a combat control center for the Swedish Navy and Air Force during the cold war, where the Baltic Sea was our focus, naturally, and know that a lot of shenanigans was going on over the Baltic Sea at the time – but this type of extreme close encounters was unusual even at that time. > > After a couple of decades of friendlier behavior between the Baltic Sea neighbors, Russia has become very provocative (for instance simulating invasion and bomb raids against Sweden, its a long list) during the last few years. > > I’m not in any control center anymore, obviously, but I would be very surprised if this was something “sailors are used to” (!). I may be wrong, however, and would be happy have my ignorance fought, as always. I, too, have served (in the USN, 1986-1989) at sea. Soviet TU-95 would overfly the ship I was on, at least once every cruise. I used to have photos of a Soviet cruiser that paralleled our course for a while. (They probably took pictures of us, as well.) > **[ELN-Russia-West-Full-List-of-Incidents.pdf](https://www.europeanleadershipnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/ELN-Russia-West-Full-List-of-Incidents.pdf)** > > 587.37 KB This document lists incidents (in respect with the Russians) over a one year period, March 2014 to March 2015. Note incidents #1 & 7 (page 9). ---
**Author:** ![barath\_s](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@barath\_s](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barath_s)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/su-24-buzzes-us-destroyer-how-unusual-are-such-hair-close-flybys/752163/28 "2016-04-19T05:37:43Z")
> [@Grateful-UnDead](#): > > (Russian and Iranian incidents) > > After all, it is a warship, it can’t definitively identify the aircraft’s intent, and the consequences of a mistake would be disastrous. Also, killing the enemy is why the warship was created. The Iranian incident took place in the middle of an undeclared war. The tanker wars were the largest naval engagement since Ww2. The captain of the Vincennes was an aggressive type and took every opportunity to show it, even when his crew was demonstrably I’ll trained and equipment problematic. Nevertheless the crew was under the impression that they were under attack by hostile force that they had engaged with/tried shooting up earlier. ( the facts were that they weren’t under attack by the plane, and at least some of the boats/torpedo gunships that the Vincennes hared after (and not just by chopper) were false radar echoes) The Russians are a known professional force , there are not large political /military stress between the us and Russia (despite Ukraine) and they are known not to start ww3 and professional enough not to do it by accident in international waters in peacetime. Now if people started getting doubtful about peacetime or international boundary broached, shoot down might happen, but otherwise a cool head knows not to fire and cause an international incident and kill someone. Defcon and standing procedures help here. I mean a gun is created to kill people, but if you were approached by someone wearing a gun and shot him because there was no way for you to know his intentions, you would be on trial and found guilty… ---
**Author:** ![Grateful-UnDead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ccd318/32.png) [@Grateful-UnDead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grateful-UnDead)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/su-24-buzzes-us-destroyer-how-unusual-are-such-hair-close-flybys/752163/29 "2016-04-19T09:10:36Z")
> [@barath\_s](#): > > The Iranian incident took place in the middle of an undeclared war. The tanker wars were the largest naval engagement since Ww2. > > The captain of the Vincennes was an aggressive type and took every opportunity to show it, even when his crew was demonstrably I’ll trained and equipment problematic. > > Nevertheless the crew was under the impression that they were under attack by hostile force that they had engaged with/tried shooting up earlier. ( the facts were that they weren’t under attack by the plane, and at least some of the boats/torpedo gunships that the Vincennes hared after (and not just by chopper) were false radar echoes) > > The Russians are a known professional force , there are not large political /military stress between the us and Russia (despite Ukraine) and they are known not to start ww3 and professional enough not to do it by accident in international waters in peacetime. > > Now if people started getting doubtful about peacetime or international boundary broached, shoot down might happen, but otherwise a cool head knows not to fire and cause an international incident and kill someone. > > Defcon and standing procedures help here. > > I mean a gun is created to kill people, but if you were approached by someone wearing a gun and shot him because there was no way for you to know his intentions, you would be on trial and found guilty… Then ther was that incident at Pearl Harbor not too long ago. Imagine how that would have turned out if the OOTD had been doing his job, and had scrambled his forces when aerial activity was idenified …! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/su-24-buzzes-us-destroyer-how-unusual-are-such-hair-close-flybys/752163.md?page=1)