# Sub-Machine Guns **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048 "2009-08-20T07:32:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/1 "2009-08-20T07:32:53Z")
Why are the magazines for these weapons curved?. I would have thought that having a straight magazine similar to the WW2 German Schmeisser would make more sense as that gives the shooter something to grip. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/2 "2009-08-20T07:58:10Z")
They are? An Uzi’s magazine is straight. The shape of the magazine is derived from the shape of the bullet. That’s why AK-47’s have “bannana” shaped mags - their rounds are highly tapered. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/3 "2009-08-20T08:01:50Z")
You could have a straight magazine with a tapered round. Magazines are curved so that they’re more compact. They’re longer, but they’re not as tall. This is especially important when employing them from a prone position - it’s already pretty uncomfortable to fire an AK with a standard sized mag from that position, and if it were a few inches taller it would be impractical. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/4 "2009-08-20T08:41:18Z")
True, although 9mm rounds never really seemed that tapered to me. As for gripping magazines: never a good idea, not if you want to use them more than once. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/5 "2009-08-20T09:03:10Z")
Hmm? They’re not designed to be hand holds generally, but they’re solid metal boxes - you’re probably not going to hurt them. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/6 "2009-08-20T09:11:21Z")
Jiggling them about too much will ruin their lips or cause double feeds - as well as mess up the weapon’s magazine catch, which isn’t designed for that kind of stress. Magazines are anything but “solid”; I’d say that unless you really suck at cleaning, most weapon misfires are caused by faulty magzines. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/7 "2009-08-20T09:33:53Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > … As for gripping magazines: never a good idea, not if you want to use them more than once. Interesting, I’m always seeing the mag on M4s, and the like, used as forward grips, > [@](#): > > **M4 Carbine effectiveness** > > An April 2002 presentation by the US Army Natick Soldier Center presented by LTC Charlie Dean and SFC Sam Newland reported on lessons learned[citation needed] from M4 use in Afghanistan (such as use during Operation Anaconda): > > ``` > * 34% of soldiers reported that their M4's handguards rattle and become excessively hot when firing.[RIGHT][CITE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_carbine#M4_Carbine_effectiveness)[/RIGHT] > > ``` and that would explain it. Are the current issue M4 (etc) magazines tougher than the magazines **Alessan** is used to or are magazines treated as disposable these days? CMC fnord! 'Cause I was under the impression that one of the fun recreational activities for a rifleman in the detachable magazine era was sitting down with a ammo crate and reloading mags 'till your thumbs fell off. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/8 "2009-08-20T10:06:22Z")
The way I understood it during my army days was that the M16 (which was what I was issued with, like most Israeli soldiers at the time) had magazines which the US armed forces treated as disposable, while the IDF did not. I certainly reloaded my share of M16 magazines! 🙂 This would also explain the difference in treatment of the magazine – Americans who fought in Vietnam may have rightly felt that once the magazine was inserted in the gun you could manhandle it all you like, you’d be throwing it out anyway – while \*\*Alessan \*\*and I both “know” that you treat a magazine with respect, as an integral part of your weapon. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/9 "2009-08-20T11:08:48Z")
Heh. Get a real gun. 😉 I have, as a test, run my truck over my AK mags without damage. No need to be gentle with them. One of my AK’s is chambered in 5.56 and its mags are slightly curved, but not as much as a 7.62 AK mag, since the rounds are less tapered. The curve doesn’t make the mag significantly shorter so that can’t be the reason. I think the curve just helps them feed better - but is optional for less tapered calibers. Are there any 7.62 x 39 rifles with straight mags? ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/10 "2009-08-20T11:37:56Z")
The other advantage of a straight magazine is that you can tape a second to the first for a quick change round. Of course my knowledge of firearms is practically nil, all I know is from what I’ve seen in films ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/11 "2009-08-20T12:23:58Z")
That will work with curved magazines too, like this: [http://1.bp.blogspot.com/\_cTGeIaD\_eXw/R2VjGQPoGyI/AAAAAAAAAAM/IOGbb48RmGQ/s320/TapedMags.jpg](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_cTGeIaD_eXw/R2VjGQPoGyI/AAAAAAAAAAM/IOGbb48RmGQ/s320/TapedMags.jpg) You could add a third one to the other side also facing down, in a down up down configuration. ---
**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/12 "2009-08-20T12:48:30Z")
They’re curved like that so they can fit snugly in the hand, and point towards the mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/13 "2009-08-20T13:13:31Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > That will work with curved magazines too, like this: [http://1.bp.blogspot.com/\_cTGeIaD\_eXw/R2VjGQPoGyI/AAAAAAAAAAM/IOGbb48RmGQ/s320/TapedMags.jpg](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_cTGeIaD_eXw/R2VjGQPoGyI/AAAAAAAAAAM/IOGbb48RmGQ/s320/TapedMags.jpg) > > You could add a third one to the other side also facing down, in a down up down configuration. The proper way to do it is [side by side](http://www.havila.co.il/cms_data/prodimages/M67239082200746261179.jpg)- otherwise it won’t fit in your ammo pouch. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/14 "2009-08-20T18:44:51Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > The way I understood it during my army days was that the M16 (which was what I was issued with, like most Israeli soldiers at the time) had magazines which the US armed forces treated as disposable, while the IDF did not. I certainly reloaded my share of M16 magazines! 🙂 > > This would also explain the difference in treatment of the magazine – Americans who fought in Vietnam may have rightly felt that once the magazine was inserted in the gun you could manhandle it all you like, you’d be throwing it out anyway – while \*\*Alessan \*\*and I both “know” that you treat a magazine with respect, as an integral part of your weapon. I don’t know about Vietnam, but I was in Iraq twice with the US Army, and magazines are not considered disposable. We emptied them once a week to take inventory of the rounds and relieve pressure on the spring. During this time, we were taught to inspect the magazine for holes, dents, excessive dirt, sand and debris. Occasionally, we had to swap out old broken magazines for new ones, but they were in no way considered disposable. Most soldiers kept the same magazines they were issued for their entire tour. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/15 "2009-08-20T19:29:51Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > The other advantage of a straight magazine is that you can tape a second to the first for a quick change round. > > Of course my knowledge of firearms is **practically nil** , all I know is from what I’ve seen in films Never trust films. For anything. Taping magazines together that way is stupid, dangerous, and will get you killed. All you are doing is exposing the most fragile and critical part of the magazine to assorted dings, bashes, bumps, scrapes, and a world full of stuff that will cause your weapon to jam at a most inopportune time. If you are going through ammo so fast that you need to cut your reload time by a fraction of a second, you need to starting aiming and stop spraying. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/16 "2009-08-20T19:41:23Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I don’t know about Vietnam, but I was in Iraq twice with the US Army, and magazines are not considered disposable. We emptied them once a week to take inventory of the rounds and relieve pressure on the spring. During this time, we were taught to inspect the magazine for holes, dents, excessive dirt, sand and debris. Occasionally, we had to swap out old broken magazines for new ones, but they were in no way considered disposable. Most soldiers kept the same magazines they were issued for their entire tour. Isn’t the “relieve pressure on the spring” part mostly urban legend? Magazines have been left filled for years with no ill effect. I don’t want to start a new thread, but it is interesting that the Army teaches that. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/17 "2009-08-20T19:51:16Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Isn’t the “relieve pressure on the spring” part mostly urban legend? Magazines have been left filled for years with no ill effect. I don’t want to start a new thread, but it is interesting that the Army teaches that. It could very well be wrong. All my firearm knowledge comes from the Army, so I can’t back it up with outside cites. Besides, it isn’t like there is some bona fide Army training tape that everyone in the entire Army watches. It is just a bunch of NCOs teaching their units, nominally out of a standardized manual of common tasks, but more likely out of their heads based on experience. I’m sure not everything they say is gospel. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/18 "2009-08-20T21:40:49Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Never trust films. For anything. Taping magazines together that way is stupid, dangerous, and will get you killed. All you are doing is exposing the most fragile and critical part of the magazine to assorted dings, bashes, bumps, scrapes, and a world full of stuff that will cause your weapon to jam at a most inopportune time. _ **If you are going through ammo so fast that you need to cut your reload time by a fraction of a second, you need to starting aiming and stop spraying.** _ Some serious thought towards carreer/lifestyle change might not go amiss, either. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/19 "2009-08-20T21:49:53Z")
Unnecessary pedantry: **Sub** -machine guns are weapons that fire pistol rounds in automatic (or burst) modes. AK-47s, M-16s, etc are assault rifles. The M-4 is a carbine assault rifle. P90, MP5, UMP45, Uzis, and such are SMGs. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/20 "2009-08-20T22:08:31Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > Unnecessary pedantry: **Sub** -machine guns are weapons that fire pistol rounds in automatic (or burst) modes. > > AK-47s, M-16s, etc are assault rifles. > The M-4 is a carbine assault rifle. > P90, MP5, UMP45, Uzis, and such are SMGs. Right. The Thompson is the classic SMG. Note that it also used a drum magazine. My Dad used one in WWII, and said the drum magazine was a poor choice in the field, as it was fiddly to change. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048.md?page=2)