# Sub-Machine Guns **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048 "2009-08-20T07:32:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/21 "2009-08-20T22:29:51Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > Unnecessary pedantry: **Sub** -machine guns are weapons that fire pistol rounds in automatic (or burst) modes. > > AK-47s, M-16s, etc are assault rifles. > The M-4 is a carbine assault rifle. > P90, MP5, UMP45, Uzis, and such are SMGs. You’re right, of course. We got distracted talking about rifles. \* Are \*there any popular pistol rounds that are so tapered as to require a curved mag? All the pistol calibers I’m familiar with are cylindrical. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/22 "2009-08-20T22:31:13Z")
Yeah, but who’d want to use a Tommygun unless you can use the drum magazine? That’s the whole point! And you can scream that the dirty coppers will never take you alive while you fire it. Try that with a straight magazine and the cops will laugh at you. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/23 "2009-08-20T22:56:07Z")
I’m no expert on machine guns so CMIIW but common sense tells me that in a combat situation you would never try to insert a curved magazine improperly i.e., have it turned the wrong way and have to flip it. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyMarine2092](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyMarine2092](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyMarine2092)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/24 "2009-08-20T23:50:19Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Interesting, I’m always seeing the mag on M4s, and the like, used as forward grips,and that would explain it. > > Are the current issue M4 (etc) magazines tougher than the magazines **Alessan** is used to or are magazines treated as disposable these days? > > CMC fnord! > 'Cause I was under the impression that one of the fun recreational activities for a rifleman in the detachable magazine era was sitting down with a ammo crate and reloading mags 'till your thumbs fell off. My own preference is to use the magazine _well_. My hand would typically be gripped right where the o-ring that keeps the handguard together, and the magazine well meet. It’s part of the lower receiver, so it doesn’t put any stress on the magazine itself. I think that’s what you’re seeing in most of those pictures. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/25 "2009-08-21T06:11:44Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Yeah, but who’d want to use a Tommygun unless you can use the drum magazine? That’s the whole point! And you can scream that the dirty coppers will never take you alive while you fire it. Try that with a straight magazine and the cops will laugh at you. Just curious to know why the cops would laugh at you if you’re using a straight mag. I mean, the bullets are still gonna be flying no matter what sort of mag. :: Cagney voice:: “you dirty rat, copper” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/26 "2009-08-21T08:02:36Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > Just curious to know why the cops would laugh at you if you’re using a straight mag. > > I mean, the bullets are still gonna be flying no matter what sort of mag. > > :: Cagney voice:: “you dirty rat, copper” The advantage of the drum is that is holds a lot more bullets. So you can spray all day from that model T window, instead of having to change mags every 5 seconds. Unless you’re a Hollywood villain, of course, in which case you can spray all day with a six-shooter :p. According to Wiki, straight mags for trench brooms came in 20 and 30 rounds versions, while drums were either 50 or 100 bullets apiece. A hundred .45 bullets. Jesus. If anything’s still standing after _that_ little shindig, you’re probably being chased by the Saint of Killers. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/27 "2009-08-21T14:03:31Z")
Or you’re a cop from [Tennessee](http://newsone.com/nation/police-shoot-man-43-times-in-tennessee/). Or [New York.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo) Or you are an [Irish gangster](http://www.carpenoctem.tv/mafia/acapone.html). Or work for LAPD. “The cops fired hundreds of rounds. They didn’t even hit the Suburban.” - Ron White ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/28 "2009-08-21T14:32:14Z")
I’ve fired several of the old-school WWII submachine guns (Sten, Thompson, MP-40, M3), and none of them had a curved magazine. All had straight magazines. I always thought the reasons that assault rifles have curved-ish magazines is so that on a 30-rounder, that the magazine didn’t stick ridiculously down below the pistol grip, which would make it hard to fire from a prone position. With rimless cartridges, there’s nothing stopping you from having straight magazines- look at the M14, the 20 round mags for the M16/M4, etc… And really… if you’re not using the handguard, why not just get a gangster grip installed up front, like the CQB M4s have? I have to figure that if you could just hold it by the magazine or magazine well, nobody’d bother with installing them. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/29 "2009-08-21T14:35:25Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Or you’re a cop from [Tennessee](http://newsone.com/nation/police-shoot-man-43-times-in-tennessee/). Or [New York.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo) Or you are an [Irish gangster](http://www.carpenoctem.tv/mafia/acapone.html). I read all three links and I don’t get it. The targets in those cases _weren’t_ left standing after the shootings; that’s the _point._ ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/30 "2009-08-21T14:41:10Z")
Not the third one. All O’Banion’s men managed to kill was an innocent bystander. Badly constructed joke written on the fly. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/31 "2009-08-21T15:09:35Z")
I thought the MP5 used a rifle round? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/32 "2009-08-21T15:22:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I thought the MP5 used a rifle round? [MP5](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_MP5) 9mm pistol round. Also variants that chamber the 10mm and .40 S&W ---
**Author:** ![Erasmus\_Darwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@Erasmus\_Darwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erasmus_Darwin)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/33 "2009-08-21T15:25:19Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > The advantage of the drum is that is holds a lot more bullets. So you can spray all day from that model T window, instead of having to change mags every 5 seconds. However, that’s offset by the fact that the drum is pretty damn heavy. I’ve got a 50-round drum and several 30-round stick mags for my Thompson, and the stick mags are a lot more comfortable to use while shooting. With the drum, it’s like having a lead weight on the front of the gun. I can’t even imagine what the 100-round drum would be like. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/34 "2009-08-21T15:53:27Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > [MP5](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_MP5) > 9mm pistol round. > > Also variants that chamber the 10mm and .40 S&W Ah, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/35 "2009-08-21T18:52:35Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > Just curious to know why the cops would laugh at you if you’re using a straight mag. For the same reason they’d laugh at you if you were wearing a straw hat instead of a silk fedora. Or white shoes after Labor Day. ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/36 "2009-08-21T20:44:52Z")
When dealing with the fashion police there’s no such thing as too big a magazine. Although with the recession and all some seem to be cutting [back](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125046605103135399.html). ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/37 "2009-08-21T20:52:46Z")
Drums in general tend to be less reliable than stick magazines, so I suspect that was the primary motivator in using the stick mags in the military Thompsons. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/38 "2009-08-21T21:00:15Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Drums in general tend to be less reliable than stick magazines, so I suspect that was the primary motivator in using the stick mags in the military Thompsons. Also, where would you carry spares - in your backpack? And how would you share ammo with a squadmate? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/39 "2009-08-21T23:13:06Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Also, where would you carry spares - in your backpack? And how would you share ammo with a squadmate? You carry it [like this](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Thompson_in_violin_case.jpg), silly. Or like [this](http://www.jmurrayinc1944.com/images/Drum%20Magazine%20Pouch%201942.jpg), if you’re boring. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2009, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048/40 "2009-08-22T00:38:41Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Drums in general tend to be less reliable than stick magazines, so I suspect that was the primary motivator in using the stick mags in the military Thompsons. Yes, as my Dad said, they were “fiddly”, and “fiddly” is a _very_ bad thing in combat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-machine-guns/507048.md?page=3)