# Sub vs. Sub? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 14, 2000, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-vs-sub/45573 "2000-12-14T18:26:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2000, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-vs-sub/45573/1 "2000-12-14T18:26:08Z")
Have two submarines ever been engaged in combat with each other? One frequently hears reads stories about all manner of naval combat, but I don’t recall ever seeing any mention of two submarines attacking each other. It’d be a shame if all those fancy attack subs never got a chance to shoot at the enemy’s fancy attack subs. . . (insert smiley face) ---
**Author:** ![scratch1300](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@scratch1300](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch1300)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2000, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-vs-sub/45573/2 "2000-12-14T18:32:39Z")
Well, the first ever sub warfare was a battle between two subs, [the _Monitor_ and the _Merrimack_](http://www.americancivilwar.com/monitor.html). It was a draw. ---
**Author:** ![scratch1300](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@scratch1300](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch1300)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2000, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-vs-sub/45573/3 "2000-12-14T18:35:42Z")
D’oh! What the hell was I thinking?! Of course they weren’t subs, they were the first ironclad ships. WTF? I mean, _WTF_? Oh God, I think I need more coffee. ---
**Author:** ![scratch1300](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@scratch1300](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch1300)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2000, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-vs-sub/45573/4 "2000-12-14T18:39:11Z")
Oh, and **VarlosZ** , it’s sometime. Lemme ask you about your _real name_. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2000, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-vs-sub/45573/5 "2000-12-14T18:45:36Z")
The short answer is **yes**. 20 German subs were sunk by the allies in WWII. How do I know this? By visiting [this site](http://uboat.net/fates/sub-sunk.htm). ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2000, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-vs-sub/45573/6 "2000-12-14T19:09:00Z")
Colin: Interesting. You never hear about those. However, I would be curious to know whether or not both subs were underwater at the time in those cases (which is what I really wanted to know, as I should have made clear). WW2 submarines traveled primarily above water, only surbmerging for attacks. It would seem likely, therefore, that those subs were sunk by submerged (or possibly even surfaced) submarines while floating. Furthermore, in the absence of torpedo guidance or even a visual cue as to a submerged target’s location, wouldn’t it be rather difficult to hit with a torpedo? Anyway, that’s what I’m lookin’ for, but thanks for the link. scratch: Ahh, yes . . . the story of VarlosZ. . . It happened several years ago – I was but a scamp at the time – that I and some of my friends were enjoying a meal at a certain “McDonald’s Restaurant” after a long day of studies at Manhattan’s prestigious Xavier High School. As we got up to leave, I happened to spot an organizer under our table. Upon examination, the organizer was revealed to contain only one form of identification: a HIP card belonging to one Mr. Varlos Z. Brathwaite. A brief call to the HIP company, followed by a brief call to Mr. Brathwaite himself, led to the eventual transfer of the organizer to Mrs. Brathwaite, who worked at Paragon Sports, next door to the McDonald’s. In return for this service, I appropriated in perpetuity Mr. Brathwaite’s name for any and all pseudonymonous purposes. Simply pit, I thought it was the coolest fucking name I’d ever heard; I’m not sure why. If you’d like to know my actual name, you’ll have to check my terribly clever email address. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2000, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-vs-sub/45573/7 "2000-12-14T20:19:54Z")
Delving into my giant bag o’ links (it beats working) The British submarine [Venturer](http://web.ukonline.co.uk/chalcraft/sm/page13.html) sunk the [U864](http://uboat.net/boats/u864.htm) while both vessels were submerged. This described as the first sinking where both subs were underwater, implying that there were others, but I can’t find any more info. [At least some modern submarines](http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/akula/)carry anti-sumarne torpedoes, but there has been an absecnce of full scale submarine warfare recently 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![scratch1300](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@scratch1300](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch1300)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2000, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sub-vs-sub/45573/8 "2000-12-14T20:46:43Z")
Ooh, **Varlos** , I have to agree, “Varlos Z. Brathwaite” _is_ a super-cool moniker. I like the Anglo-Saxon+Slavic feel. I imagine a kind of English country squire with a touch of Dracula. Neato.