# Subliminable II **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 26, 2000, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619 "2000-09-26T16:35:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/1 "2000-09-26T16:35:59Z")
George W., who puts the _duh_ in Dubya, has outdone himself once again. This morning on the radio I heard a tape of him saying, in reference to OPEC oil: > [@](#): > > **More and more of our imports are coming from overseas.** He’s doing more to get Gore elected than any Democrat. Here’s a great quote from Newsweek’s Jonathan Alter (11 September 2000): > [@](#): > > **I’d like to see the Democrats attack Bush as a lightweight in hock to polluters who expects the Oval Office as a graduation present and wouldn’t know enough as president to settle the inevitable differences among his advisers.** Woo_hoo!_ Discuss. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/2 "2000-09-26T17:17:58Z")
I can think of at least two places that are not America and are also not “overseas”. Can you? Seriously, to the point of your (or rather, Jonathan Alter’s) debate: > [@](#): > > I’d like to see the Democrats attack Bush as a lightweight in hock to polluters who expects the Oval Office as a graduation present and wouldn’t know enough as president to settle the inevitable differences among his advisers. Now, IANAR, but Gore is no statesman either. There are many things wrong with both of these guys. Bush and Gore are both tepid politicians who got where they are by being born well and always saying what their advisors want them to say. Or sticking their tongues where their advisors tell them to stick them. _Shiver_) Note that Alter doesn’t really support Gore, he supports the Democrats. If he were to turn his considerable wit to Gore he would find fertile ground. The kind of name-calling you’re gleefully indulging in here masks the main issue, which is this: the two main dudes are so wishy-washy and centrist that they don’t even really oppose each other anymore, and they will say anything necessary to get elected and then change very little. To wit: Gore and Bush are both retarded and unfit for the office in their own ways, and those who attack one or the other are fooling themselves if they think it makes a difference. My opinion on the matter: Gore is a wooden, fake, slimy politician. Bush is a relaxed, goofy, slimy politician. I prefer Bush if I have to choose, but I’d much rather have either of the Veeps than the guys actually running. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/3 "2000-09-26T17:28:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stolichnaya \* > **I can think of at least two places that are not America and are also not “overseas”. Can you?** Thanks for pointing that out. Perhaps Lissener and Bush had the same geography teacher? And so what if Bush has gotten a lot of money from oil? Gore has gotten plenty from the pharmeceutical companies just dying for that big corporate welfare plan Gore wants for them. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/4 "2000-09-26T17:29:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stolichnaya \* > **I can think of at least two places that are not America and are also not “overseas”. . . .** I was so sure that someone would trot this out that I almost included a preemptive defense of it in my OP. But then I decided that in so assuming I was being too hard on the SDMB community; no one here would be that shamelessly lame, I thought. Well, I’m forced to admit I was wrong. I will say it again, stoli: _He was referring to Middle Eastern oil._ (Even so, when one uses the word “overseas” to mean “where imports come from,” one is not specifically excluding Canada and Mexico. “Overseas” entered the English language _when English was the language of an island people,_ and has a fully viable tradition of referring to anything outside our borders. Granted, such use is archaic–at best effete–but hardly obsolete.) In any case, the context at hand precludes such sophistry. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/5 "2000-09-26T17:32:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > **. . . Perhaps Lissener and Bush had the same geography teacher? . . .** Perhaps jmullaney and Dubya had the same geography teacher: jmullaney apparently thinks Canada is in the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/6 "2000-09-26T17:33:19Z")
Venezuela is a member of OPEC. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/7 "2000-09-26T17:37:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*jmullaney apparently thinks Canada is in the Middle East. \*\* Well, I’d like to see the full quote in context, thanks. And, I’ve never thought of South America as overseas, but I know how picky you are and how you’ll twist things, so let’s just see the full quote. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/8 "2000-09-26T17:37:16Z")
Er, lissener? You know that Mexico exports oil to us? And it isn’t ‘overseas’? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/9 "2000-09-26T17:37:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Keeve \* > \*\*Venezuela is a member of OPEC. \*\* This is _so funny_. The bushbabies are saying that Dubya was very subtly distinguishing foreign oil that comes across the Great Water from foreign oil that travels by Iron Horse. What’s next, it was his accent? ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/10 "2000-09-26T17:41:09Z")
And the naderites are agreeing with them! Must be a non-moderate-democrat-wing conspiracy! ---
**Author:** ![JDeMobray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@JDeMobray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDeMobray)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/11 "2000-09-26T17:42:33Z")
Is the implication that Bush knows Venezuela is a member of OPEC. I’m curious about the number of OPEC member nations that Gov. Bush could name, if asked with no prep work. (Keeping in mind his previously displayed canny grasp of international politics.) ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/12 "2000-09-26T17:46:31Z")
To be fair, Dubya’s history of sucking at the oily teat of Big Petroleum has probably given him ample opportunity to know _at least_ the OPEC roll, if very little else. So, if he _couldn’t_ name them, it would be unequivocal proof that he’s not qualified, as another Doper has said to me in private email, to be a speed bump. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/13 "2000-09-26T17:56:51Z")
> [@](#): > > I was so sure that someone would trot this out that I almost included a preemptive defense of it in my OP. But then I decided that in so assuming I was being too hard on the SDMB community, blah, blah, blah. I’m sorry, let me take another crack at that. Oh, my goodness, another spoonerism from Dubyah. I bet all the bushbabies and republican’ts will whine and whine and whine like the bushbaby republican’ts they are that Dubyah isn’t a rich white idiot crosseyed rich pigeonfooted rich twerp who suckles at the Greasy Teat of Big Oil and the Rusty Udder of Big Business and the Dusty Jockstrap of Major League Baseball and the Sweaty Turban of OPEC. My extreme glee at this misstatement approaches even the sheer orgiastic overload of political wonderfulness that was Dan Quayle. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/14 "2000-09-26T18:04:44Z")
Imports from overseas? John Alter of _Newsweek_? Big fuckin’ deal. I much prefer Bill Turque’s story in _Newsweek_ about Gore’s confusion over his dog’s arthritis medicine. [http://www.msnbc.com/news/464671.asp#BODY](http://www.msnbc.com/news/464671.asp#BODY) > [@](#): > > Gore told a crowd in Tallahassee on Aug. 28 that his mother-in-law and his dog take the same arthritis medicine, but that Margaret Ann Aitcheson’s prescription costs three times as much as the one for Shiloh, the black Labrador. > > But family stories are dangerous territory for Gore. As is often the case, this one was a little too vivid. The Boston Globe reported on Monday that Gore took his figures not from his family’s records but from a House study on drug prices. Moreover, Aitcheson uses Lodine while Shiloh is given an animal version called Etogesic. Gore struck again the same day the Globe story ran. There are more foolish lies and blunders in the article. This guy’s too stupid to even acknowledge his mistakes. He just keeps repeating them. This trait is much more damning than a bit of trouble with words and definitions. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/15 "2000-09-26T18:16:37Z")
I’ll agree that Gore made a political miscalculation in using a fictional example to illustrate a financial fact. I do the same thing all the time, but I would hope to know better if I were running the presidential campaign gauntlet. That said, it wasn’t a mistake made out of stoopidity, it was an (ill-advised) attempt to personalize and simplify a real situation. He had more faith in the public than he should have had. Comedy Central is running a “campaign” to keep Clinton in office. Hell, if I depended on the the quantity of jokes produced by the Oval Office for my living, I’d be out stumping for Bush. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/16 "2000-09-26T18:22:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > That said, it wasn’t a mistake made out of stoopidity, it was an (ill-advised) attempt to personalize and simplify a real situation. He had more faith in the public than he should have had. Right. He wasn’t “lying” by saying that things that didn’t happen to him did happen to him; he was “personalizing” the situation. His fault wasn’t in claiming that a specific thing happened to his family when in fact the opposite was true; it was in having ‘too much faith in the public’. Let me just make sure I’ve got this straight- Bush bumbles his words occasionally, and it shows that he has the mental capacity of a mental retarded person, and isn’t fit for even menial labor; Gore tells outright lies and exagerations, and it just shows that he’s too trusting. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/17 "2000-09-26T18:24:59Z")
The simple fact remains that Bush is a moron. The guy’s continuous malapropisms are incontrovertible proof that the man is incapable of coherent thought. I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks this person is fit to lead our country. I dread to think what sort of grades this guy got in his English courses. There is just **no excuse** for maiming the English language like he does. If a salesman came into my office talking like that he would be ejected so fast that all you would hear is a popping sound of the air rushing back in to occupy the previous location of his body. America cannot afford to have a mental midget like Bush at the helm. Gore’s sleazy politics are bad enough, and wooden as he is, I’d still rather have him represent this country than an effing half wit. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/18 "2000-09-26T19:05:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Corrado \* > **. . . His fault wasn’t in claiming that a specific thing happened to his family when in fact the opposite was true . . .** Um, John? You’re fictionalizing the situation in order to support an otherwise unsupportable point. “The opposite” was not, in fact true: Gore’s grandmother is in fact on an arthritis medicine, and his dog does in fact take a veterinary form of the same medicine, which is in fact cheaper. Gore used a more recognizable brand name to illustrate his point. What “opposite?” You’re also illustrating another point: no bushbaby can defend Dubya, they can only sputter: “Wull, whut about _Gore?_” And anyway, I’m obviously not going to go through the same mental (and I _do_ mean that in the nicest way) gyrations to find a way to put Gore’s actions in a bad light as the bushbabies are, so this may make me appear biased (which of course makes me unique in this forum). Gore disappoints me in many ways–he’s not my ideal candidate by a long, long shot–but he doesn’t outright _scare_ me. The Republican Party would have done better to offer Chauncey Gardener as a candidate for the presidency. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/19 "2000-09-26T19:09:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > \*\*. . . If a salesman came into my office talking like that he would be ejected so fast that all you would hear is a popping sound of the air rushing back in to occupy the previous location of his body. \*\* That explains what I thought was the sound of camer shutters whenever you see Dubya on TV: _Duh_, all the cameras are digital nowadays: that’s the vacuum in his skull affecting little pockets of air as his head wobbles around on his neck. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > \*\*. . . America cannot afford to have a mental midget like Bush at the helm. Gore’s sleazy politics are bad enough, and wooden as he is, I’d still rather have him represent this country than an effing half wit. > \*\* Thank you, Z, for so clearly elucidating the unfortunate choice we are left with in this campaign. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2000, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619/20 "2000-09-26T19:27:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > Um, John? You’re fictionalizing the situation in order to support an otherwise unsupportable point. “The opposite” was not, in fact true: Gore’s grandmother is in fact on an arthritis medicine, and his dog does in fact take a veterinary form of the same medicine, which is in fact cheaper. Gore used a more recognizable brand name to illustrate his point. What “opposite?” Er, no. The medication Gore was talking about, in generic brands, is three times as expensive for animals as it is for humans. In other words, Gore’s point- that the pharmaceutical companies are extorting money from the elderly- is completely compromised by the _truth_ in numbers of the example he offered. So he _changed_ the numbers. > [@](#): > > You’re also illustrating another point: no bushbaby can defend Dubya, they can only sputter: “Wull, whut about _Gore?_” Listen, I’ve been over this with you twice so far. I have explained that his ability to speak in public does not indicate an inability to think. I have explained that those presidents we have had who were ‘smartest’ were in no way better- and in most cases worse- presidents than those we considered ‘average’ or ‘below average’. In both cases, you failed to bother to respond to my arguments, and you continued to state that W was a complete moron for making verbal mistakes. Excuse me if I don’t believe that you are, in good faith, interested in debating this issue, and that instead you’re trying to score points by attacking him. Excuse me if I think that you have no interest in what I have to say to defend him, as you have yet to respond to my statements in the previous thread. So excuse me for not expending efforts in an excercise in futility. > [@](#): > > And anyway, I’m obviously not going to go through the same mental (and I _do_ mean that in the nicest way) gyrations to find a way to put Gore’s actions in a bad light as the bushbabies are, Jesus Christ! He used _fake_ numbers in his statement as to what medications for his mother-in-law and his dog cost! He stated **unequivocally** that those drugs cost a certain amount, when it has been shown that the actual prices for those drugs are not **near** that amount! He based a comparison between the two on prices that had been practically **transposed**! And somehow, it’s “gyrations” to put this in a “bad light”? He **lied** about what his mother-in-law and his dog pay for medication so as to make the point that ‘big pharmaceutical’ companies are screwing the elderly, when the **true** facts in this instance would suggest the opposite. Forget it. I’m sorry I even **tried** to debate you; you and **Zenster** have long since proven that you have **no** interest in a debate or discussing the facts when you’d prefer to throw around insults and berate people. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminable-ii/34619.md?page=2)