# subliminal seduction **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 13, 1999, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546 "1999-06-13T01:45:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 1999, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546/61 "1999-06-25T00:57:00Z")
**RealityChuck** asks: > [@](#): > > Did anyone here cite any studies that supported Keyes assumption that subliminals actually do something? Although **Dragonfly99** has been asked several times to do so, he continues to refuse, but in such an obfuscatory way that no one even knows if he is even aware of any. I believe that either his continual non-responsive responses amount to deliberate (if bizarrely conceived) evasion, or they reflect a deeper problem for which Dragonfly cannot be held responsible. It is precisely because Dragonfly has, even in all his posts, failed to make his position clear to us that I asked him to answer what _I_ think are legitimate questions in order to get a handle on what his positions are. What do you think of my questions? Do you think they are unfair? If he doesn’t agree with any of the positions, all he has to do is say “False”! Compare them with Dragonfly’s deliberately insulting questions for me, which I went ahead and answered to the best of my ability to understand his often incoherent writing. Would you agree that to have Dragonfly’s answers could return this thread to some semblance of mutual communication? If dragonfly wants to take the “vitriol” and his incomprehensible pseudo-logical blathering over to the BBQ pit, I’m sure we’d all be grateful. I was simply hoping that he would be able to contribute intelligently to the discussion, since he’s apparently the **only** one who maybe-possibly-could-be believes in subliminal images in printed ads! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 1999, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546/62 "1999-06-25T01:51:00Z")
**omniscientnot** writes: > [@](#): > > Realitychuck: Pure conjecture on my part here. But maybe they sign confidentiality agreements and could be sued. I understand you were only pointing out a tentative explanation, so please don’t think these comments are meant to “chew you head off”. They’re just my reasoning on the issues Realitychuck raised… First, let me point out the obvious that if there is no “subliminal” advertising going on, no confidentiality agreements are required! Second, I and my colleagues have signed scores of confidentiality agreements over the years, each of which threatened dire legal consequences should anyone violate their terms. Yet just about everyday we went to lunch, we’d discuss the “confidential” subjects openly and publicly (and occasionally rather loudly). We’d discuss them with our spouses and children and neighbors and in-laws. In short, confidentiality agreements simply **don’t** keep things confidential. The outright assassination of those with the secret knowledge of “subliminal advertising” would be the “conspiracy’s” **only** hope of keeping something as big as this a secret. Can anyone cite a series of freak deaths of retired or retiring ad executives or their families? Or do they ship them all off to “The Village”? Hell, even Secret and Top Secret military information isn’t always kept all that secret. During my time working in aerospace, we’d all refer to the excellent trade journal “Aviation Week” (home of the incomparable Phil Klass) as “Aviation Leak”! Even The Guvvmint is an incredibly leaky sieve! The bottom line is that keeping something as big and as allegedly important to advertisers as “subliminal” ads would be virtually impossible. If anyone can think of a **plausible** way to accomplish it, please let us all know! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 1999, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546/63 "1999-06-25T03:23:00Z")
Well put, Ambushed, and I didn’t take offense in the slightest. Can you now address a point I made a while ago concerning the use of language (written, verbal and body) as some sort of not so much subliminal as what I’d rather call _liminal_ seduction. Any thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 1999, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546/64 "1999-06-25T03:47:00Z")
The reason I refuse to answer the childish questionare that **ambused** has concocted is because: [ul][li]He wants me to cite possible hidden or non-existent human psychological research; andThe word **conspiracy** keeps cropping up;[/ul][/li] Now why is that? Not only does ambushed want to continuously blur lines of logic, distort the truth and evade commonsense reasoning, he ALSO wants to holler “conspiracy” at every conceivable moment… if only to make you feel sorry for his obvious LACK of intelligence, not to mention non-existent “adult” demeanor. I believe that Dr. Key knows of what he speaks. In his book _Clam-Plate Orgy_, he cites some of his projects completed in over **300** research studies. These include Puerto Rico, General Foods, Nabisco, Schlitz, Eastern Airlines, Volkswagen, Seagrams, Sea-Land, Simmons, Del Monte, Gillete, General Motors, etc. This list includes sizeable international ad agencies. * * * “Right is only half of what’s wrong” - George Harrison _- Old Brown Shoe -_ ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 1999, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546/65 "1999-06-25T04:05:00Z")
**omniscientnot** writes: > [@](#): > > Can you now address a point I made a while ago concerning the use of language (written, verbal and body) as some sort of not so much subliminal as what I’d rather call liminal seduction. Any thoughts? I entirely agree with you that advertisers very often deliberately (but not secretively) “hedge” their ads anyway they legally can. I’ve seen many different strategies used: - overt or suggested sexuality, sexual innuendo, and sexual double entendre (as you’ve already mentioned) - the reliance on deliberately flawed logic and _non sequiturs_ to suggest an advantage of one product over another - the use of cute and cuddly kids or animals to suggest benevolence on the part of the product or manufacturer - And the tactic I object to more than any of the others: the insidious association of music with products! I can’t tell you how often I imagined wreaking horrible vengeance against Burger King, or The Movie Channel for unspeakably befouling Beethoven’s Ninth forever! AAARRRGGHH! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 1999, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546/66 "1999-06-25T04:20:00Z")
**Dragonfly99** , I do not write this in anger or resentment, or to insult or demean you as a person. But it now seems to me that your posts here provide persuasive evidence suggesting the possibility that you may be suffering from some form of mental illness or other emotional disability. I’m not being caustic, mean-spirited, or sarcastic when I say this. Since my typically direct style of argument seems inappropriate for someone who doesn’t appear to be in full posession of their faculties, I cannot in good conscience continue to debate with you. Forgive me. Although I hope you will not take my words _yet again_ as some kind of twisted insult or devious plot, I sincerely and genuinely advise you to consult a mental health professional or ask your loved ones to help you if necessary. There is no shame in this! I wish I could convince you of my genuine concern and empathy for you, now that my suspicions have finally gelled. I deeply regret losing my patience with you earlier and making fun of some of the things you wrote, because I fear this bad blood between us will cause you to doubt that I genuinely care for your well being. I may well be wrong about this, but as someone who actually considers themselves to be a fairly caring human being, I urge you to consider my advice. Good luck! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 1999, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546/67 "1999-06-25T09:25:00Z")
I thought perhaps I should clarify something regarding my last post. My expression of concern was _ **in no way** _ based on Dragonfly’s views or opinions. _ **I** _ would have to be _seriously_ deranged myself to imagine that just because someone disagreed with me or insulted me, they are in some way suffering from a delusion or other psychological affliction. I assure everyone here that I do not feel this way at all. I was simply following what I saw as the proper moral choice. If you saw someone who was apparently unaware they were injured in some way, would you not feel compelled to strongly encourage them to seek medical treatment? It is the very same distaste and embarrassment that many people feel discussing mental illness that reinforces the social stigma people hold against its sufferers. To pretend it doesn’t exist may _appear_ to be more polite, but it can often be a disservice to those we care about. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 1999, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546/68 "1999-06-26T18:24:00Z")
Ah. I see the ThoughtPolice have been hard at work. And not too surprisingly I might add **ambushed** is trying ignominiously to make a case that I have committed some sort of **ThoughtCrime.** This, like most of your arguments and “refutations” presented here are specious at best and reliably lead nowhere. Perhaps that is where you want to go. Your incoherent musings are sufficiently ambiguous to lead a reasonable person to believe that you haven’t a single clue as to what you are trying to argue. As far as to the allusion that I am perhaps suffering from some sort of lack of common-sense and/or mental imcompetence - I only ask - Have you looked in the mirror lately? \T A K E - A - G O O D - L O O K **ambushed** the only reason that you are backing out of this discussion is because you don’t have a leg to stand on, and you know it. You are more than welcome to return when you acknowledge your deceptive and jumbled tactics. * * * “Right is only half of what’s wrong” - George Harrison _- Old Brown Shoe -_ ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 1999, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546/69 "1999-06-26T18:32:00Z")
Ah. I see the ThoughtPolice have been hard at work. And not too surprisingly I might add **ambushed** is trying ignominiously to make a case that I have committed some sort of **ThoughtCrime.** This, like most of your arguments and “refutations” presented here are specious at best and reliably lead nowhere. Perhaps that is where you want to go. Your incoherent musings are sufficiently ambiguous to lead a reasonable person to believe that you haven’t a single clue as to what you are trying to argue. As far as to the allusion that I am perhaps suffering from some sort of lack of common-sense and/or mental imcompetence - I only ask - Have you looked in the mirror lately? \\ \\code:\\\T A K E A G O O D L O O K [/quote] \\ **ambushed** the only reason that you are backing out of this discussion is because you don’t have a leg to stand on, and you know it. You are more than welcome to return when you acknowledge your deceptive and jumbled tactics. * * * “Right is only half of what’s wrong” - George Harrison _- Old Brown Shoe -_ ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 1999, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546/70 "1999-06-26T21:21:00Z")
Maybe if we ignore the screaming man, he will go away. Back to the subject at hand… I am trying to understand how someone could believe that anyone could retain subliminal messages, when most people reject DIRECT messages. I guess that some people are so obsessed with “secret” messages, they see them everywhere. At the risk of drawing the wrath of you-know-who, just because Keyes brought up, AND accused, most of the major industry leaders does not give him any validity. He was big on negative name dropping, betting on the fact that most of them wouldn’t bother sueing such a small pain in the butt. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 1999, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546/71 "1999-06-26T23:20:00Z")
slythe wrote: > [@](#): > > “I am trying to understand how someone could believe that anyone could retain subliminal messages, when most people reject DIRECT messages.” I have a number of problems with these ambiguous statements. One is that they appear to be thinly disguised personal attacks. Another is you have made no distinction between subliminal messages versus direct messages. I will assume that you are referring to innocuous and simplistic ad copy as opposed to subliminal archetypal images and figures superimposed onto and into ad art. Mission Accomplished! 😉 That is \*\*precisely \*\* the mechanism that the good ole boys on Madison Avenue are counting on to influence your buying decision. The fact that these images are subconsciously perceived and may in fact affect a decision to buy at a later date is the basis for their use. One could correctly argue that that is the reason for all advertisements. To quote Dr. Key in _Clam Plate Orgy (p. 20):_ > [@](#): > > “The artists do not really hide anything! It is always available to anyone who could consciously deal with the information. Viewers actually hide the taboo images from their own conscious awareness, lest they arouse culturally forbidden memories, feelings, or perceptions” * * * “Right is only half of what’s wrong” - George Harrison _- Old Brown Shoe -_ ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 1999, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546/72 "1999-06-26T23:56:00Z")
1. It’s Mr. KEYES, not Dr. KEY. 2. We all know about Keyes delusions by now. Where is the outside collaberation? 3. Who is NOT involved in this great and secret conspiracy of yours? Why can’t you find any evidence whatsoever? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 1999, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546/73 "1999-06-27T07:03:00Z")
On the topic of Ambush’s exit: While I agreed with most of Ambushed’s points, I do not think there is any polite way to suggest somebody find mental help in a public forum, and I told him so (by private email). He responded that he had looked for a private email reference, and followed the web site reference (which DOES contain an email link, but it is not clear that it belongs to DF). He posted only in order to suggest a course of action, not to denigrate DF. While he will not return to this thread himself, he permitted me to summarize his response. Note that Ambush is not convinced that there is mental illness, but only advises a good “checkup”. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 1999, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546/74 "1999-06-27T19:25:00Z")
So an innocent and supposedly thought provoking thread about subliminal inserts in mass media advertising has turned to the subject of… The Mentally Ill?? HUH?? I hate to break it to you two… uh… PERSONNAS… but it would appear that you both definitely have a screw or two loose. I hope that in both of your cases that it’s not **permanent.** A childish obfuscation tactic? Perhaps. Hardly the **blockbuster refutation** and **debunking** that we were all waiting for. In fact, not even a recognizable form of pseudo-science. Just unsubstantiated garbage and questionable rhetoric. That’s all. slythe wrote:\*\* > [@](#): > > “It’s Mr. KEYES, not Dr. KEY.” Maybe I should add YOUR name to the list of those who REALLY need and should seek professional help. * * * “Right is only half of what’s wrong” - George Harrison _- Old Brown Shoe -_ ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 1999, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546/75 "1999-06-27T19:27:00Z")
So an innocent and supposedly thought provoking thread about subliminal inserts in mass media advertising has turned to the subject of… The Mentally Ill?? HUH?? I hate to break it to you two… uh… PERSONNAS… but it would appear that you both definitely have a screw or two loose. I hope that in both of your cases that it’s not **permanent.** A childish obfuscation tactic? Perhaps. Hardly the **blockbuster refutation** and **debunking** that we were all waiting for. In fact, not even a recognizable form of pseudo-science. Just unsubstantiated garbage and questionable rhetoric. That’s all. slythe wrote: > [@](#): > > “It’s Mr. KEYES, not Dr. KEY.” Maybe I should add YOUR name to the list of those who REALLY need and should seek professional help. * * * “Right is only half of what’s wrong” - George Harrison _- Old Brown Shoe -_ ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 1999, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546/76 "1999-06-27T22:49:00Z")
Is there a moderator in the house? Again, once more, and repeatedly, back to the subject of this thread. Mr. Keyes has made some fantastic claims about a conspiracy in the advertising world. He also has made some incredible claims about how the human mind works. Has he provided any scientific proof? D99, if you MUST scream incoherrently, could you please take it to the BBQ pit. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 1999, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546/77 "1999-06-27T23:41:00Z")
Uh slythe. I have before me a copy of Dr. Key’s third work _The Clam Plate Orgy._ He apparently spells his name Key. Do I need to cite scientific studies to support my claim that gravity exists? That the sun is going to rise tomorrow morning no matter what? I know that you can do better than that. Alot of scientific theory is only considered valid until it is disproved or revised in some manner. Even so, all of it rests on empirical data and observation at some point. Your calling for absolute proof in the form of scientific studies does not in any way invalidate or disprove his theories or his works in the least. * * * “Right is only half of what’s wrong” - George Harrison _- Old Brown Shoe -_ ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 1999, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546/78 "1999-06-28T00:05:00Z")
## Geezis. How did this get by me? Oh, sorry, I was dreaming and looking at random patterns in the clouds. Argh. Things got ugly quick, eh? Now, if you kids can’t play nice, please go play in the BBQ pit. The end. Nickrz For The Straight Dope ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 1999, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546/79 "1999-06-28T00:20:00Z")
Is there ANY proof? Can he prove it? Does he have any evidence? We he provide any facts? Where’s the beef? Show me the money! Where are the independent studies? I can’t think of any other ways to say it! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subliminal-seduction/1546.md?page=3)