Although Dragonfly99 has been asked several times to do so, he continues to refuse, but in such an obfuscatory way that no one even knows if he is even aware of any. I believe that either his continual non-responsive responses amount to deliberate (if bizarrely conceived) evasion, or they reflect a deeper problem for which Dragonfly cannot be held responsible.
It is precisely because Dragonfly has, even in all his posts, failed to make his position clear to us that I asked him to answer what I think are legitimate questions in order to get a handle on what his positions are.
What do you think of my questions? Do you think they are unfair? If he doesn’t agree with any of the positions, all he has to do is say “False”! Compare them with Dragonfly’s deliberately insulting questions for me, which I went ahead and answered to the best of my ability to understand his often incoherent writing.
Would you agree that to have Dragonfly’s answers could return this thread to some semblance of mutual communication?
If dragonfly wants to take the “vitriol” and his incomprehensible pseudo-logical blathering over to the BBQ pit, I’m sure we’d all be grateful. I was simply hoping that he would be able to contribute intelligently to the discussion, since he’s apparently the only one who maybe-possibly-could-be believes in subliminal images in printed ads!
I understand you were only pointing out a tentative explanation, so please don’t think these comments are meant to “chew you head off”. They’re just my reasoning on the issues Realitychuck raised…
First, let me point out the obvious that if there is no “subliminal” advertising going on, no confidentiality agreements are required!
Second, I and my colleagues have signed scores of confidentiality agreements over the years, each of which threatened dire legal consequences should anyone violate their terms. Yet just about everyday we went to lunch, we’d discuss the “confidential” subjects openly and publicly (and occasionally rather loudly). We’d discuss them with our spouses and children and neighbors and in-laws. In short, confidentiality agreements simply don’t keep things confidential.
The outright assassination of those with the secret knowledge of “subliminal advertising” would be the “conspiracy’s” only hope of keeping something as big as this a secret. Can anyone cite a series of freak deaths of retired or retiring ad executives or their families? Or do they ship them all off to “The Village”?
Hell, even Secret and Top Secret military information isn’t always kept all that secret. During my time working in aerospace, we’d all refer to the excellent trade journal “Aviation Week” (home of the incomparable Phil Klass) as “Aviation Leak”! Even The Guvvmint is an incredibly leaky sieve!
The bottom line is that keeping something as big and as allegedly important to advertisers as “subliminal” ads would be virtually impossible. If anyone can think of a plausible way to accomplish it, please let us all know!
Well put, Ambushed, and I didn’t take offense in the slightest. Can you now address a point I made a while ago concerning the use of language (written, verbal and body) as some sort of not so much subliminal as what I’d rather call liminal seduction. Any thoughts?
The reason I refuse to answer the childish questionare that ambused has concocted is because: [ul][li]He wants me to cite possible hidden or non-existent human psychological research; andThe word conspiracy keeps cropping up;[/ul][/li]
Now why is that?
Not only does ambushed want to continuously blur lines of logic, distort the truth and evade commonsense reasoning, he ALSO wants to holler “conspiracy” at every conceivable moment… if only to make you feel sorry for his obvious LACK of intelligence, not to mention non-existent “adult” demeanor.
I believe that Dr. Key knows of what he speaks. In his book Clam-Plate Orgy, he cites some of his projects completed in over 300 research studies. These include Puerto Rico, General Foods, Nabisco, Schlitz, Eastern Airlines, Volkswagen, Seagrams, Sea-Land, Simmons, Del Monte, Gillete, General Motors, etc. This list includes sizeable international ad agencies.
“Right is only half of what’s wrong” - George Harrison - Old Brown Shoe -
I entirely agree with you that advertisers very often deliberately (but not secretively) “hedge” their ads anyway they legally can. I’ve seen many different strategies used:
overt or suggested sexuality, sexual innuendo, and sexual double entendre (as you’ve already mentioned)
the reliance on deliberately flawed logic and non sequiturs to suggest an advantage of one product over another
the use of cute and cuddly kids or animals to suggest benevolence on the part of the product or manufacturer
And the tactic I object to more than any of the others: the insidious association of music with products! I can’t tell you how often I imagined wreaking horrible vengeance against Burger King, or The Movie Channel for unspeakably befouling Beethoven’s Ninth forever! AAARRRGGHH!
Dragonfly99, I do not write this in anger or resentment, or to insult or demean you as a person. But it now seems to me that your posts here provide persuasive evidence suggesting the possibility that you may be suffering from some form of mental illness or other emotional disability. I’m not being caustic, mean-spirited, or sarcastic when I say this.
Since my typically direct style of argument seems inappropriate for someone who doesn’t appear to be in full posession of their faculties, I cannot in good conscience continue to debate with you. Forgive me.
Although I hope you will not take my words yet again as some kind of twisted insult or devious plot, I sincerely and genuinely advise you to consult a mental health professional or ask your loved ones to help you if necessary. There is no shame in this!
I wish I could convince you of my genuine concern and empathy for you, now that my suspicions have finally gelled. I deeply regret losing my patience with you earlier and making fun of some of the things you wrote, because I fear this bad blood between us will cause you to doubt that I genuinely care for your well being. I may well be wrong about this, but as someone who actually considers themselves to be a fairly caring human being, I urge you to consider my advice.
I thought perhaps I should clarify something regarding my last post. My expression of concern was in no way based on Dragonfly’s views or opinions. I would have to be seriously deranged myself to imagine that just because someone disagreed with me or insulted me, they are in some way suffering from a delusion or other psychological affliction. I assure everyone here that I do not feel this way at all.
I was simply following what I saw as the proper moral choice. If you saw someone who was apparently unaware they were injured in some way, would you not feel compelled to strongly encourage them to seek medical treatment? It is the very same distaste and embarrassment that many people feel discussing mental illness that reinforces the social stigma people hold against its sufferers. To pretend it doesn’t exist may appear to be more polite, but it can often be a disservice to those we care about.
Ah. I see the ThoughtPolice have been hard at work. And not too surprisingly I might add ambushed is trying ignominiously to make a case that I have committed some sort of ThoughtCrime.
This, like most of your arguments and “refutations” presented here are specious at best and reliably lead nowhere. Perhaps that is where you want to go. Your incoherent musings are sufficiently ambiguous to lead a reasonable person to believe that you haven’t a single clue as to what you are trying to argue.
As far as to the allusion that I am perhaps suffering from some sort of lack of common-sense and/or mental imcompetence - I only ask - Have you looked in the mirror lately?
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ambushed the only reason that you are backing out of this discussion is because you don’t have a leg to stand on, and you know it.
You are more than welcome to return when you acknowledge your deceptive and jumbled tactics.
“Right is only half of what’s wrong” - George Harrison - Old Brown Shoe -
Ah. I see the ThoughtPolice have been hard at work. And not too surprisingly I might add ambushed is trying ignominiously to make a case that I have committed some sort of ThoughtCrime.
This, like most of your arguments and “refutations” presented here are specious at best and reliably lead nowhere. Perhaps that is where you want to go. Your incoherent musings are sufficiently ambiguous to lead a reasonable person to believe that you haven’t a single clue as to what you are trying to argue.
As far as to the allusion that I am perhaps suffering from some sort of lack of common-sense and/or mental imcompetence - I only ask - Have you looked in the mirror lately?
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ambushed the only reason that you are backing out of this discussion is because you don’t have a leg to stand on, and you know it.
You are more than welcome to return when you acknowledge your deceptive and jumbled tactics.
“Right is only half of what’s wrong” - George Harrison - Old Brown Shoe -
Maybe if we ignore the screaming man, he will go away. Back to the subject at hand…
I am trying to understand how someone could believe that anyone could retain subliminal messages, when most people reject DIRECT messages. I guess that some people are so obsessed with “secret” messages, they see them everywhere.
At the risk of drawing the wrath of you-know-who, just because Keyes brought up, AND accused, most of the major industry leaders does not give him any validity. He was big on negative name dropping, betting on the fact that most of them wouldn’t bother sueing such a small pain in the butt.
I have a number of problems with these ambiguous statements. One is that they appear to be thinly disguised personal attacks. Another is you have made no distinction between subliminal messages versus direct messages.
I will assume that you are referring to innocuous and simplistic ad copy as opposed to subliminal archetypal images and figures superimposed onto and into ad art.
Mission Accomplished! That is **precisely ** the mechanism that the good ole boys on Madison Avenue are counting on to influence your buying decision. The fact that these images are subconsciously perceived and may in fact affect a decision to buy at a later date is the basis for their use. One could correctly argue that that is the reason for all advertisements.
To quote Dr. Key in Clam Plate Orgy (p. 20):
“Right is only half of what’s wrong” - George Harrison - Old Brown Shoe -
While I agreed with most of Ambushed’s points, I do not think there is any polite way to suggest somebody find mental help in a public forum, and I told him so (by private email).
He responded that he had looked for a private email reference, and followed the web site reference (which DOES contain an email link, but it is not clear that it belongs to DF). He posted only in order to suggest a course of action, not to denigrate DF. While he will not return to this thread himself, he permitted me to summarize his response.
Note that Ambush is not convinced that there is mental illness, but only advises a good “checkup”.
So an innocent and supposedly thought provoking thread about subliminal inserts in mass media advertising has turned to the subject of… The Mentally Ill??
HUH??
I hate to break it to you two… uh… PERSONNAS… but it would appear that you both definitely have a screw or two loose.
I hope that in both of your cases that it’s not permanent.
A childish obfuscation tactic?
Perhaps.
Hardly the blockbuster refutation and debunking that we were all waiting for. In fact, not even a recognizable form of pseudo-science. Just unsubstantiated garbage and questionable rhetoric. That’s all.
slythe wrote:**
Maybe I should add YOUR name to the list of those who REALLY need and should seek professional help.
“Right is only half of what’s wrong” - George Harrison - Old Brown Shoe -
So an innocent and supposedly thought provoking thread about subliminal inserts in mass media advertising has turned to the subject of… The Mentally Ill??
HUH??
I hate to break it to you two… uh… PERSONNAS… but it would appear that you both definitely have a screw or two loose.
I hope that in both of your cases that it’s not permanent.
A childish obfuscation tactic?
Perhaps.
Hardly the blockbuster refutation and debunking that we were all waiting for. In fact, not even a recognizable form of pseudo-science. Just unsubstantiated garbage and questionable rhetoric. That’s all.
slythe wrote:
Maybe I should add YOUR name to the list of those who REALLY need and should seek professional help.
“Right is only half of what’s wrong” - George Harrison - Old Brown Shoe -
Is there a moderator in the house?
Again, once more, and repeatedly, back to the subject of this thread.
Mr. Keyes has made some fantastic claims about a conspiracy in the advertising world. He also has made some incredible claims about how the human mind works. Has he provided any scientific proof?
D99, if you MUST scream incoherrently, could you please take it to the BBQ pit. Thank you.
Uh slythe. I have before me a copy of Dr. Key’s third work The Clam Plate Orgy.
He apparently spells his name Key.
Do I need to cite scientific studies to support my claim that gravity exists? That the sun is going to rise tomorrow morning no matter what? I know that you can do better than that.
Alot of scientific theory is only considered valid until it is disproved or revised in some manner. Even so, all of it rests on empirical data and observation at some point.
Your calling for absolute proof in the form of scientific studies does not in any way invalidate or disprove his theories or his works in the least.
“Right is only half of what’s wrong” - George Harrison - Old Brown Shoe -
Geezis. How did this get by me? Oh, sorry, I was dreaming and looking at random patterns in the clouds. Argh. Things got ugly quick, eh? Now, if you kids can’t play nice, please go play in the BBQ pit.
The end.
Is there ANY proof?
Can he prove it?
Does he have any evidence?
We he provide any facts?
Where’s the beef?
Show me the money!
Where are the independent studies?
That is **precisely ** the mechanism that the good ole boys on Madison Avenue are counting on to influence your buying decision. The fact that these images are subconsciously perceived and may in fact affect a decision to buy at a later date is the basis for their use. One could correctly argue that that is the reason for all advertisements.