# submarine crew **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 12, 2003, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868 "2003-11-12T18:41:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![boofy\_bloke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@boofy\_bloke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boofy_bloke)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/41 "2003-11-15T01:48:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BF \* > \*\*[ul][li] Fast attack boats have a chaotic schedule. One year we spent over 290 days at sea.[/li] > [li] Boomers have strict schedules, 90 days at sea, 90 days in port (for the crews).[/li][/ul] \*\* So “Fast” was just added to impress the money-handing-out committee? Why “boomer”? Or is it just because they shoot things that go boom? Are guided missile frigates guided because their missiles do more than just shoot out of a tube or are they frigates that are guided and have missiles onboard? Someone really oughta clean up the English language one day (and I don’t mean Esperanto). ---
**Author:** ![Doc\_Nickel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/42 "2003-11-15T03:49:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by boofy\_bloke \* > **So “Fast” was just added to impress the money-handing-out committee?** -Basically. As I recall, the LA-class boats were among the fastest front-line platforms afloat, at the time. > [@](#): > > **Why “boomer”? Or is it just because they shoot things that go boom?** -'Zactly. Big missiles that make really big “Booms”. > [@](#): > > **Are guided missile frigates guided because their missiles do more than just shoot out of a tube or are they frigates that are guided and have missiles onboard?** -Almost nobody uses unguided missiles these days. _Aegis_ type missile frigates are basically launch platforms for Harpoons (antiship guided cruise missiles) Tomahawks (multi-use cruise missiles, usually for land-attack missions) and SUB-Rocs (rocket-launched torpedoes.) All of which are “guided”, via onboard nav systems that can use (depending on the weapon and application) sonar, GPS, radar, infrared, terrain-mapping radar or IR “spotter” laser. ---
**Author:** ![Lockz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Lockz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lockz)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/43 "2003-11-15T04:53:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rick \* > \*\*And if you don’t get those terms right, **robby** will throw you out of one of those funny little round windows. > > (Yeah I know subs don’t have portholes, but that old joke was too good to pass up.) \*\* Well, instead of those funny little windows, how about treating you like a fish? Just load you up into a torpedo tube and shoot you into the opposing sub! ---
**Author:** ![Extraneous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/0ea827/32.png) [@Extraneous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Extraneous)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/44 "2003-11-15T06:17:48Z")
What is the mission of a “fast attack” sub? Are they intended for first-strike use, as opposed to a “boomer” being for “yeah, you got us, but we’re going to take you with us” response? And, from a practical standpoint - what is the survivability of a sub, really? Doesn’t everybody know where to find everybody else’s boats, and how to kill them quickly and efficiently? ---
**Author:** ![DreadCthulhu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DreadCthulhu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DreadCthulhu)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/45 "2003-11-15T12:26:02Z")
Fast attacks are ment to sink other subs, and surface ships; they are also useful for Tomahawk strikes. Boomers are a deterent weapon, carrying over a hundred nuclear warheads, in 18 ballistic missles. One of them could devestate any country on earth; the US currently has 18 of them - all Ohio class boats, though 4 of the Ohio class are being converted to carry ~150 conventional Tomahawks, as well as extra space for special forces teams, instead of the nuclear missles. And submarines are EXTREMELY hard to find, - even the US has a hard time tracking down other subs - even old diesel electric boats(well, at least when said boats are runnng on their batteries) Submarines are probably the hardest to kill of any combat vessal, short of maybe a Carrier in the middle of its battle group(and then, a Carrier is very easy to find.) I have heard several stories of subs in combat training exercises sneaking up on Carrier battlegroups(that knew the subs were coming) and getting firing solutions at my ROTC unit. And then there are the boomers, which are extremely quiet, and of course, invisible to sattelites and radar. All they do is go into the middle of the ocean, and putt around at a couple knots, waiting for the order to launch. And since the missles they carry have ranges of thousands of miles, any potential enemy would have to survey vast swaths of ocean, to even have a chance of finding one of the boomers. ---
**Author:** ![swansont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5fc32e/32.png) [@swansont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swansont)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/46 "2003-11-15T14:34:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DreadCthulhu \* > Fast attacks are ment to sink other subs, and surface ships; they are also useful for Tomahawk strikes. Add to that ELINT - electronic intelligence gathering. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/47 "2003-11-15T17:54:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by boofy\_bloke \* > \*\*So “Fast” was just added to impress the money-handing-out committee? > > Why “boomer”? Or is it just because they shoot things that go boom? > > Are guided missile frigates guided because their missiles do more than just shoot out of a tube or are they frigates that are guided and have missiles onboard? > > Someone really oughta clean up the English language one day (and I don’t mean Esperanto). \*\* Fast attack subs probably got the moniker compared to the diesel electrics that preceded them. The speed of a diesel electric surfaced is usually around 17- 23 knots , their underwater speed would depend on the life of the battery ,but probably lurking at 5-10 knots. Nukes on the other hand spend a very minimum time near the surface , and while speed is classified , most people believe that its around 35 knots submerged ( Personally I think around 45) Declan ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/48 "2003-11-15T22:13:06Z")
The pay is definitely better. A friend of mine’s an O-3(Lieutenant) in the submarine fleet, and he told me he makes around $100K per year, when you figure in base pay, housing allowances, sub pay, cost of living adjustments, etc… Check it out here: [http://www.staynavy.navy.mil/Tools/PCC/default.asp](http://www.staynavy.navy.mil/Tools/PCC/default.asp) Sub officers are definitely well paid! ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/49 "2003-11-16T13:39:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Extraneous \* > \*\*What is the mission of a “fast attack” sub? > > Are they intended for first-strike use, as opposed to a “boomer” being for “yeah, you got us, but we’re going to take you with us” response? > > And, from a practical standpoint - what is the survivability of a sub, really? Doesn’t everybody know where to find everybody else’s boats, and how to kill them quickly and efficiently? \*\* The primary mission of fast attack boats are as carrier escorts. Carriers are capable of attaining speeds of 40 knots, so figuring out LA class max speed is not too difficult. It’s secondary mission is hunter-killer, to track enemy boats and sink them before they can get to the carriers or launch ballistic missiles. Another mission parameter may be to infiltrate straits or deep harbors and lay mines. Some boats have also been configured to deliver spec ops forces near relatively shallow coastlines. The boomer’s job is to hide from the enemy’s fast attack boats, and to fire ballistics missiles when ordered to do so. Survivability is high based on the boat’s stealth. They can’t be seen, unless on the surface or at periscope depth. They can only be heard by sonar. Tracking infrared signals via satellite is possible, but I think it’s still in the realm of James Bond flicks. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2003, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/50 "2003-11-16T16:09:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by boofy\_bloke \* > \*\*Someone really oughta clean up the English language one day \*\* Nah, that’s just the quirks of Military-Speak. sometimes it’s because of inherent conservatism – the “CV” in an aircraft carrier hull-number meant originally “Cruiser, Aviation” since the originals back in the 30s were designed as converted battlecruisers. Other times, a classic designation is given a new meaning as time passes – for 25 years all destroyers launched for the US Navy have been primarily armed with missiles, but they’ve kept distinguishing DD from DDG based on which are optimized for what missions. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/51 "2003-11-16T19:48:30Z")
So, the CO[sub]2[/sub] that you vent, and the hydrogen that’s left over from hydrolyzing seawater… How long can a sub “hold it” before venting gasses? I would think that it’d be relatively easy to detect the bubbles. ---
**Author:** ![MonkeyMensch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@MonkeyMensch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeyMensch)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2003, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/52 "2003-11-16T19:52:13Z")
I think the gasses are driven into solution and then released. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2003, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/53 "2003-11-16T23:47:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wnorthr \* > \*\*We had an outboard motor on our boat. I’m not kidding. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BF \* > \*\*And it’s called the Emergency Propulsion Motor (EPM), defined [here](http://www.navicp.navy.mil/84/842/iwst/t05sys.htm) > WE2 - Emergency and Secondary Propulsion Systems > > The Emergency Propulsion Motor is used when the main propulsion system fails. The Secondary Propulsion motor is normally used to maneuver when the submarine is in port, but can be used in emergencies. \*\* Hey, **BF** , I know you know this, but the outboard is the SPM, not the EPM. ---
**Author:** ![Wheel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/4da419/32.png) [@Wheel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheel)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2003, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/54 "2003-11-17T01:44:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > \*\*So, the CO[sub]2[/sub] that you vent, and the hydrogen that’s left over from hydrolyzing seawater… How long can a sub “hold it” before venting gasses? I would think that it’d be relatively easy to detect the bubbles. \*\* Not at all. The gas is pumped overboard as it’s produced. It’s piped into the aux. seawater system and pumped out of the ship. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/55 "2003-11-17T13:05:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Hey, BF, I know you know this, but the outboard is the SPM, not the EPM. D’OH!! And probably for the fourteenth time I’ve confused the two… ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/56 "2003-11-17T18:28:16Z")
If the enemy does find a sub and kills it, does the crew have any hope of getting out (free ascent with life rafts? – I don’t know) or are they pretty much screwed? ---
**Author:** ![wnorthr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecccb3/32.png) [@wnorthr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wnorthr)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/57 "2003-11-17T20:32:05Z")
Screwed ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/58 "2003-11-18T01:03:30Z")
To exand a little bit on what **wnorthr** wrote, if the boat takes a direct torpedo hit, they’re in the eternal patrol book. Most boats do have crew escape devices, but for all practical purposes they’re for use in under 600 feet. Deep Submergence Rescue Vehicles (DSRV’s) can operate up to IIRC, 2000-3000 feet, but the boat must be upright within 15-20 degrees. And of course, the escape hatch can’t be mangled, etc. The personal escape units (Steinke hoods) the boats have on board can let men escape, but from depths of less than 600 feet. The Momsen lung was originally developed for this in the late 1950’s. However, one can refer to the sinking of the Russian SSN Kursk a couple of years ago in relatively shallow water and know that this is purely luck when things are blowing up. For reference, IIRC, the Thresher and the Scorpion (US boats) both lie in waters over 3500 feet deep. No salvage, let alone rescue. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/59 "2003-11-18T01:48:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BF \* > \*\* The Momsen lung was originally developed for this in the late 1950’s. \*\* [nitpick mode] The Momsen lung was invented in 1929 (or thereabouts I wasn’t able to find an exact date on line) Here is a picture of a sailor modeling one in [1930](http://www.therebreathersite.nl/Presentatie2002/1921-1950/momsen_lung_1929.htm) on the sub V-5. In additon some sailors from the USS Tang escaped after it was sunk in 1944 using the lung. [/nm] ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868/60 "2003-11-18T02:38:48Z")
The USS Squalus in 1939 and the Peruvian SS48 Pacocha in 1988 both went down due to mechanical failure, relatively intact, at depths between 137 and 240 feet and significant numbers of their crews were succesfully rescued (diving bell). Momsens and dive hoods may be useful in shallow water. But as mentioned, if you’re out in deep ocean and/or things are blowing up, you’re pretty much SOL. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-crew/212868.md?page=4)