# Submarine design. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 28, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283 "2012-02-28T21:27:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/21 "2012-02-29T15:44:31Z")
When will we see truly modern subs? I mean, fully automatic (small crews, no more helmsman, OOD, exec, etc.). It should be possible to computerize an attack sub, to the point where you could get by with 12-15 men aboard. Then they could be made really small and fast. ---
**Author:** ![Dufus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c77e96/32.png) [@Dufus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dufus)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/22 "2012-02-29T16:13:13Z")
From the Wikipedia article: “After passing 9,000 meters one of Trieste’s outer Plexiglas window panes cracked, shaking the entire vessel.” If I had been in it, the entire inside would have been covered in chocolate. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/23 "2012-02-29T16:29:25Z")
> [@Dufus](#): > > If I had been in it, the entire inside would have been covered in chocolate. Had I been there, we’d have been treading water since we first submerged. ---
**Author:** ![Rich\_G7subs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85e7bf/32.png) [@Rich\_G7subs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rich_G7subs)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/24 "2012-02-29T16:41:04Z")
> [@pdunderhill](#): > > Good day good people, > I’m curious, kind of why I’m here! > > I know the USSR made Sub hulls out of Titanium and never really understood the whys and wherefores of that.. > > Over to the collective brain! > > Peter Soviet subs hulls were made of titanium because titanium is stronger allowing a deeper “crush” depth to be achieved. The steel (HY-80 when I was in) hulls used in US subs withstands the flexing stress from going deep then shallow repeatedly better than the more brittle titanium. AND because they have more titanium resources than we do. At least that’s what I was told while I was in Uncle Sams Submarine club. ---
**Author:** ![Rich\_G7subs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85e7bf/32.png) [@Rich\_G7subs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rich_G7subs)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/25 "2012-02-29T16:49:13Z")
So basically the Russkies could dive deeper than ours but not last as long as ours. ---
**Author:** ![Dufus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c77e96/32.png) [@Dufus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dufus)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/26 "2012-02-29T18:22:51Z")
Page 4 and 5 of this website shows parts for submarine pressure hulls being produced at [Lukens steel mill](http://www.lukenshistoricdistrict.org/events_VICFphjotodisplay2008_page4.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/27 "2012-02-29T19:01:23Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > How long does it take to get there and return? > [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > While I’m sure I’m being whooshed,[just the descent to the ocean floor took almost 5 hours](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathyscaphe_Trieste). And another 3 hours and change to get back up. I can see how they might’ve gotten a little hungry. I was being funny, but the quote to which I was responding was: > [@](#): > > The two men spent barely twenty minutes at the ocean floor, eating chocolate bars for sustenance. Not “They ate chocolate bars for sustenance during the eight-hour voyage,” mind you. The word “sustenance” is specifically linked to the phrase “barely twenty minutes.” It’s just abysmally (abyss-mally?) bad writing. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/28 "2012-02-29T19:05:24Z")
> [@pdunderhill](#): > > …I know the USSR made Sub hulls out of Titanium and never really understood the whys and wherefores of that. > [@Rich\_G7subs](#): > > Soviet subs hulls were made of titanium because titanium is stronger allowing a deeper “crush” depth to be achieved. The steel (HY-80 when I was in) hulls used in US subs withstands the flexing stress from going deep then shallow repeatedly better than the more brittle titanium. > > AND because they have more titanium resources than we do. At least that’s what I was told while I was in Uncle Sams Submarine club. To add to **Rich** ’s post, titanium is stronger than steel, but is more susceptible to metal fatigue damage that manifests itself as sudden failure with no warning. :eek: It would not be good to have a sudden hull failure. Reportedly, Soviet/Russian submarine crews had to keep track of how many deep dive cycles their hull had taken, and the number of allowable cycles was relatively small. In addition, titanium is very difficult to work with and to weld. > [@ralph124c](#): > > When will we see truly modern subs? I mean, fully automatic (small crews, no more helmsman, OOD, exec, etc.). It should be possible to computerize an attack sub, to the point where you could get by with 12-15 men aboard. > Then they could be made really small and fast. The reason why military submarines have relatively large crews is threefold: (1) there is less to go wrong if you are less dependent on automatic equipment; (2) if something does go wrong, you have the repair personnel on board who can fix it; and (3) you have personnel on board for damage control during combat operations. Think of all of the maintenance personnel that are needed to keep a fighter plane in the air. Also, for a submarine, “fast” equals “loud” (and therefore detectable). ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/29 "2012-02-29T22:18:09Z")
> [@robby](#): > > The reason why military submarines have relatively large crews is threefold: (1) there is less to go wrong if you are less dependent on automatic equipment; (2) if something does go wrong, you have the repair personnel on board who can fix it; and (3) you have personnel on board for damage control during combat operations. I believe that in WWII, crews were cross trained to be able to do another guy’s job if needed. ---
**Author:** ![Rich\_G7subs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85e7bf/32.png) [@Rich\_G7subs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rich_G7subs)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/30 "2012-02-29T22:35:04Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I believe that in WWII, crews were cross trained to be able to do another guy’s job if needed. Still done today. That’s the whole reason for the Submarine qualification process (Dolphins). Crews are large because the ship runs on basically a “3 section rotation” the crew is split into thirds. One section will be standing watch (Actually Driving the ship, running the engineroom, manning the torpedo room , sonar room etc while the 2nd third does maintenance and training,while the final third of the crew sleeps. So 6hrs on watch, 6hrs maintenance/training, 6 hrs sleep… repeat ad nauseum! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/31 "2012-02-29T23:30:08Z")
> [@Rich\_G7subs](#): > > Actually Driving the ship Ship or boat? ---
**Author:** ![Rich\_G7subs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85e7bf/32.png) [@Rich\_G7subs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rich_G7subs)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/32 "2012-03-01T15:32:06Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Ship or boat? Either or… interchangeable… we called it “the pig”. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/33 "2012-03-01T17:22:55Z")
> [@Rich\_G7subs](#): > > Still done today. That’s the whole reason for the Submarine qualification process (Dolphins). Crews are large because the ship runs on basically a “3 section rotation” the crew is split into thirds. One section will be standing watch (Actually Driving the ship, running the engineroom, manning the torpedo room , sonar room etc while the 2nd third does maintenance and training,while the final third of the crew sleeps. So 6hrs on watch, 6hrs maintenance/training, 6 hrs sleep… repeat ad nauseum! Six, and not eight? (CV sailor here. We had twelve on, twelve off.) ---
**Author:** ![Rich\_G7subs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85e7bf/32.png) [@Rich\_G7subs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rich_G7subs)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/34 "2012-03-01T17:48:59Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Six, and not eight? > > (CV sailor here. We had twelve on, twelve off.) Nope, 6 hour rotation so your “day” is actually 18 hours. For example, If you stood the Midwatch (00:00 to 06:00) you would eat breakfast, do maint, work on quals/training (or watch a movie/play poker if you had time) from 06:00 to 12:00, then sleep from 12:00 to 17:00, get up, shower, eat and then go back on watch at 18:00. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/35 "2012-03-01T17:58:37Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Six, and not eight? You could look at it as 18-hour days, or standing two watches most days. The time-of-day of your watch would constantly move, but it doesn’t matter much when the lights are always on and you don’t see the sun. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/36 "2012-03-01T20:00:34Z")
Yes, 6 hours on; 12 hours “off.” It’s similar to rotating shift work. The quotes above are because you’re not actually “off” unless your off shift(s) are either in the evening (1800-2400), midwatch (0000-0600), or on a weekend. If your off-shift is in the morning, you are expected to go to morning training, even if you just got off standing watch over the midwatch. In the afternoons, everybody is required to participate in the all-hands drills. Midwatches are actually the worst, then, because you stand watch all night; go to training all morning, sack out over lunch, then wake to sounds of alarms for drills. Then you go back on watch for the evening watch. However, after you get off watch at midnight, you can sleep soundly until you have to get up for training the next morning. The next day is great because after morning training, you are already up and on watch for drills in the afternoon (1200-1800), then you are off for two undisturbed watch sections (from 1800 until 0600 the next morning). Then you get to miss training the next day because you are on watch in the morning. That night, you’re back on midwatch. Rinse and repeat. ---
**Author:** ![Rich\_G7subs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85e7bf/32.png) [@Rich\_G7subs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rich_G7subs)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/37 "2012-03-01T20:18:01Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Yes, 6 hours on; 12 hours “off.” It’s similar to rotating shift work. > > The quotes above are because you’re not actually “off” unless your off shift(s) are either in the evening (1800-2400), midwatch (0000-0600), or on a weekend. > > If your off-shift is in the morning, you are expected to go to morning training, even if you just got off standing watch over the midwatch. In the afternoons, everybody is required to participate in the all-hands drills. > > Midwatches are actually the worst, then, because you stand watch all night; go to training all morning, sack out over lunch, then wake to sounds of alarms for drills. Then you go back on watch for the evening watch. However, after you get off watch at midnight, you can sleep soundly until you have to get up for training the next morning. > > The next day is great because after morning training, you are already up and on watch for drills in the afternoon (1200-1800), then you are off for two undisturbed watch sections (from 1800 until 0600 the next morning). Then you get to miss training the next day because you are on watch in the morning. That night, you’re back on midwatch. Rinse and repeat. What really sucked was pulling the 18-24:00 watch on Saturday at sea. You’d stand your watch 18-24:00, do maint/training until 6AM try and get an hour sleep before, the dreaded 7AM announcement “All hands Commence field day” (Navy term for top to bottom cleaning in all spaces for 4 hours) You clean until 11AM, then come back on watch for the 12-1800 watch. UGH. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/38 "2012-03-01T21:43:35Z")
Screw that. You guys deserve those dolphins, no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![pdunderhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@pdunderhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pdunderhill)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/39 "2012-03-01T22:41:31Z")
Thanks all of you, esp. the Submariners, it constantly astonishes me the specific and precise replies that Dopers post. To add slightly to the OP. Surely very deep diving capabilities can only be an advantage to any Navy? After all you can sneak past SOSUS etc by using deeper channels. As I understand it most NATO boats navigate using a standard set of ‘depth maps’, ie the Arabian Gulf, (littoral admitedlly), is well mapped and Subs will follow a track at a constant depth. The Sea around the Korean peninsula is a different matter. Here I think deep diving capability really could make a difference, a closer approach to the mainland before Magnetic Anomaly Detectors pick you up, if the NKs have them. As a complete aside can anyone fill me in on an idea about Mach 1+ Aircraft I heard from a Royal Fleet Air Arm pilot years ago? Essentially what was propsed was to have microwave emitters on the leading edges of wings. This would turn the surrounding air into plasma and lower it’s density and theoretically lessen the thrust needed for the aircraft’s propulsion. Sounds a bit too obvious to me but stranger things have happened. Peter ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283/40 "2012-03-01T23:34:41Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Screw that. > > You guys deserve those dolphins, no doubt. Hey, us spouses deserve something for our husbands being missing so frequently … there is a reason for the joke haze grey and always away … :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-design/614283.md?page=3)