# Submarine Spy Scandal **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 12, 2021, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377 "2021-10-12T22:55:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/21 "2021-10-13T13:08:05Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > I don’t understand why Donald Trump being President was the impetus for all of this, they did know eventually someone else would take office right? I see where the OP has made that claim, and the timing works out, but I don’t see a cite for that claim. Just the OP’s assertion. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/22 "2021-10-13T13:12:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > I’m not very familiar with nuclear technology, but the information is usually covered by the ‘restricted’ designation. This is the first mention I’ve heard in this case of classified data (albeit the lowest level). It may be tangential to the nuke-related information, which might be of greater value. Since they mention translating into the target country’s language, we can conclude it wasn’t Australia. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/23 "2021-10-13T13:21:35Z")
In the US Navy, nuclear propulsion data can range from unclassified (but still restricted by other markings - most commonly NOFORN which means no foreign nationals can see it) up through classified TOP SECRET and probably beyond. Source - I was a nuclear trained submarine officer. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/24 "2021-10-13T13:25:25Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The accused took safeguards against this. They required that the embassy of the country they were working with display a special signal for the entire memorial day weekend. The FBI could not have gained their trust without cooperation from the country. This alone rules out China. Whatever political motivation they may have had, they were asking for a hell of a lot of money, so greed apparently tops the list. ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/25 "2021-10-13T13:38:31Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Since they mention translating into the target country’s language, we can conclude it wasn’t Australia. I apologize for this poor translation into your language. I added as many ‘G’day Mates,’ 'billabongs, ‘no wuckas,’ and ‘brekkies’ as I could, but I fear I put them in the wrong places. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/26 "2021-10-13T13:40:56Z")
The bit about translation might have been to mislead the other country. Or not. Why Guys Spy? “MICE;” Money, Ideology, Compromise, Excitement. It seems there two wanted money and talked ideology. You think the other nation might have been Israel? They are probably pretty jumpy about another Pollard. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/27 "2021-10-13T14:28:49Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > You think the other nation might have been Israel? They are probably pretty jumpy about another Pollard. I think that’s more than likely. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/28 "2021-10-13T14:34:38Z")
Why would Israel want nuclear-sub technology from spies? It has no intention of getting a nuclear sub fleet. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/29 "2021-10-13T14:37:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > CONFIDENTIAL is the lowest classification level, below SECRET. > > What a couple of treasonous dumbasses. I highly doubt any country would pay much for CONFIDENTIAL secrets. The husband holds top secret DoD security clearance, per p. 10 of the affidavit, and he was trying to establish a long term relationship with the foreign country. But as far as things on the SD card he actually left in a sandwich, > The U.S. Navy determined that multiple documents on the SD card contained Restricted Data. Specifically, the U.S. Navy subject matter expert determined that several of the documents contained militarily sensitive design elements, operating parameters, and performance characteristics of Virginia-class submarine reactors. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/30 "2021-10-13T14:41:34Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Why would Israel want nuclear-sub technology from spies? It has no intention of getting a nuclear sub fleet. Remember, COUNTRY 1 wasn’t the one who initiated the espionage. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/31 "2021-10-13T14:49:27Z")
IIRC “Restricted” is a catch-all term that includes both Classified info and unclassified info that still has markings (such as previously mentioned NOFORN) meant to restrict access. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/32 "2021-10-13T14:49:32Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > Why Guys Spy? “MICE;” Money, Ideology, Compromise, Excitement. It seems there two wanted money and talked ideology. I remember the acronym as SMICE, the “S” being for sex. I guess since they were married, they were no longer interested in sex. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/33 "2021-10-13T14:55:31Z")
> [@Folly](#): > > I apologize for this poor translation into your language. I added as many ‘G’day Mates,’ 'billabongs, ‘no wuckas,’ and ‘brekkies’ as I could, but I fear I put them in the wrong places. And they would have left the card in a beer can. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/34 "2021-10-13T15:13:28Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The U.S. Navy determined that multiple documents on the SD card contained Restricted Data. Specifically, the U.S. Navy subject matter expert determined that several of the documents contained militarily sensitive design elements, operating parameters, and performance characteristics of Virginia-class submarine reactors. I’m mostly surprised he was able to copy that stuff to an SD card without them knowing. Aren’t those computers usually pretty locked down? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/35 "2021-10-13T15:40:00Z")
It may have been in his line of work. Unlike Snowden this isn’t a contractor, but as I understand it an employee of the Navy. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/36 "2021-10-13T15:57:06Z")
Ah, but “Restricted Data” (note both words capitalized) is: > [@](#): > > As defined in the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, all information concerning - > > - the design, manufacture, or use of atomic weapons; > - the production of special nuclear material; and > - **the use of special nuclear material in the production of energy.** per [https://www.directives.doe.gov/terms\_definitions/restricted-data](https://www.directives.doe.gov/terms_definitions/restricted-data) “Restricted Data” is called out in the reported findings, and the highlighted portion of the definition above is why: detailed information about military nuclear reactors is Restricted Data. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/37 "2021-10-13T16:59:18Z")
Anybody remember the Toshiba Machine submarine scandal in the early 1990s? [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toshiba–Kongsberg\_scandal](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toshiba%E2%80%93Kongsberg_scandal) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/38 "2021-10-13T17:21:30Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > > [@Asuka](#): > > > > I don’t understand why Donald Trump being President was the impetus for all of this, they did know eventually someone else would take office right? > > I see where the OP has made that claim, and the timing works out, but I don’t see a cite for that claim. Just the OP’s assertion. I read a number of articles and the evidence seems pretty thin. The Loebbes began offering to sell military secrets in April 2020. If their motive was Trump’s election, they waited until pretty late in his term. It’s clear that Diane Toebbe doesn’t like Trump. She posted about people voting against Trump on her Facebook page. But she wasn’t fanatical about it; she wasn’t calling for a revolution or an assassination. As far as I can tell, neither Dianne or Jonathan Toebbe has said that opposition to Trump was a motive for their crime. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/39 "2021-10-13T17:40:07Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Whatever political motivation they may have had, they were asking for a hell of a lot of money, so greed apparently tops the list. I’ve seen other, unrelated, news stories - arrests for spying, hitmen, etc where the arrested was agreeing to whatever they were arrested for for a relative pittance. Personally, I wouldn’t even consider 15, or more, years of my life in the clink for only $1000 or $2500, even if I was otherwise so inclined to spy or kill someone. Big risks deserve big rewards, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/40 "2021-10-13T20:00:18Z")
I’m just going to back @iiandyiiii up on this and note that, as a fellow former nuke officer (albeit one fit to see the light of day) Confidential tends to be the go-to classification level for naval nuclear reactors. If I had to hazard a guess as to why the charging docs specify “Restricted Data” upper case, I might suggest that maybe that’s the term that whatever statute that regulates and makes it illegal to share nuclear info uses? Like, a term of art? It may also be they just don’t want to give away or signal just how significant the leaked info was, particularly if greater specificity is not required by law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377.md?page=3)