# Submarine Spy Scandal **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 12, 2021, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377 "2021-10-12T22:55:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19adc/32.png) [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpacemanSpiff_II)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/41 "2021-10-13T21:21:01Z")
The whole issue of translating into another language is pretty weird, at first glance. English is a pretty widely understood language, particularly in diplomatic and military circles. I wouldn’t think there was any necessity to translate anything into any other language, and I don’t think spies typically do this. That said, my guess at this time would be France. (Re Israel: besides for the nuclear sub issue, I don’t know that a passionate progressive would be looking to spy for Israel.) ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/42 "2021-10-13T22:37:35Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > There are many levels of secrecy, > I have no idea what they are called, of course. That would be Restricted, Confidential, Secret, Top Secret. There is also Q clearance for nuclear matters – both weapons and reactors. It’s gotten rather a bad reputation lately. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/43 "2021-10-13T22:55:20Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > I too wonder what the unnamed country was. I _strongly_ doubt it’s Australia. China seems more likely. The couple may have wanted to get as far away as possible, without learning a new language. I’m wondering about this too. Any country that I think might be interested seems unlikely to alert the US. So, who wants sub tech, seems hostile enough to steal it, yet would alert the US that the offer was made? The affidavit mentions that there will be a signal visible at the “main building” of this foreign power in DC. It appears that not only did this nation notify the US, they also cooperated in the investigation. I wonder if the wife was truly involved, or if the government is using her to pressure him. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > An American sub recently ran into something underwater in the SCS. Do you mean hit something literally or that they detected something? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/44 "2021-10-13T23:06:50Z")
There was some sort of collision involving the USS Connecticut a week ago. Not a particular severe one, but there was something and it’s still unannounced. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/45 "2021-10-13T23:08:13Z")
They hit something. [US Denies Cover-up of Submarine Collision in South China Sea — BenarNews](https://www.benarnews.org/english/news/philippine/united-states-submarine-collision-china-reax-10132021102936.html) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/46 "2021-10-13T23:11:14Z")
There was a rumor that the Thresher or the Scorpion, I do not recall which, hit a Russian sub. There was also a novel about the supposed incident, where an American sub with her propellers protected by a cage, sank a Russian submarine by collision in revenge. I doubt there is any truth to it. It is distressing that the Chinese have satellite technology that can find submarines. Of course, they may be lying, and just read the newspaper. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/47 "2021-10-13T23:16:51Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If he and his wife hated Trump, then, as pointed out, they had four whole years of Trump in which they could have gotten “even” with Trump by doing this, rather than waiting for Biden. I’d like to suggest that one of the tactics of the right-wing militias and other cabals has been to accuse the left of exactly what they were doing on the right. Therefore, though he says it was against Trump, the couple are actually pro-Trump and are trying to throw shade on the left by claiming to be left. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/48 "2021-10-13T23:29:29Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Remember, COUNTRY 1 wasn’t the one who initiated the espionage. Not to speak for **Velocity** , but I assume he’s saying that it would make no sense for the alleged perps to approach a country with no such intentions. Which may be giving too much credit to the Keystone spies. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/49 "2021-10-13T23:32:14Z")
> [@carnut](#): > > I’d like to suggest that one of the tactics of the right-wing militias and other cabals has been to accuse the left of exactly what they were doing on the right. Therefore, though he says it was against Trump, the couple are actually pro-Trump and are trying to throw shade on the left by claiming to be left. Nice little conspiracy theory. But it’s hard to conceive of diehard Trumpers having sufficient subtlety to fool colleagues for years about their politics, not to mention the ability to hide their frustrations while stumping for BLM and other progressive causes. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/50 "2021-10-13T23:41:38Z")
I’d say it’s 90%+ chance that it’s France. Foreign nation, embassy has multiple buildings, friendly enough to turn him away but not so friendly that it didn’t seem like a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/51 "2021-10-13T23:44:28Z")
China comes off as very touchy about US submarine capability. I’m guessing that whatever they hit was Chinese and they’re pissed off about it. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/52 "2021-10-13T23:52:47Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > It is worthy of note that they seem to have been upset that Donald Trump was president and decided to hurt America to something, something, something. It’s total horseshit – it was greed. Pure and simple greed. If you’re an ideological warrior that wants to make Trump Land pay, you vote against it, you protest - shit, you move to another country and say ‘Fuck paying US taxes.’ They did it because they thought they could get money and then maybe skip the country before the heat got turned up too high. Now they’re looking at serious time in the clink, as they should. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/53 "2021-10-13T23:54:41Z")
Perhaps one of those Secret Undersea Labs from Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea. I think that is an apt comment, Sunny\_Daze. I wonder if the sub was investigating something, although that sounds all too much like VTTBOTS. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/54 "2021-10-13T23:56:15Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > And, a language that even idiot Americans could think they could translate. (Chinese, not so much.) The French are not close allies, but they are not enemies. To paraphrase Churchill, the French will make the right decision, after considering all the wrong ones. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/55 "2021-10-14T11:39:14Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > Why Guys Spy? “MICE;” Money, Ideology, Compromise, Excitement. It seems there two wanted money and talked ideology. Elsewhere listed as: 1. Love 2. Money 3. Spite 4. You had to, Honey ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/56 "2021-10-14T15:43:23Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Elsewhere listed as: > > 1. Love > 2. Money > 3. Spite > 4. You had to, Honey But they always find out in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/57 "2021-10-14T16:53:59Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > There are many levels of secrecy, > I have no idea what they are called, of course. > So let’s name them Secret, Top-secret, Super-top-secret, Super-super-top secret, etc. 🙂 > I’m guessing that “Confidential” is probably one of the lower levels of secrecy. From [here](https://www.dami.army.pentagon.mil/site/infosec/TP-levels.aspx): - **TOP SECRET** Information in which the unauthorized disclosure could reasonably be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security. - **SECRET** Information in which the unauthorized disclosure could reasonably be expected to cause serious damage to the national security. - **CONFIDENTIAL** Information in which the unauthorized disclosure could reasonably be expected to cause damage to the national security. Not pertinent to this case, as far as I know, but access to such documents also assumes a “need to know”. Someone with a TS clearance who needs access to TS documents relating to, say, “nuclear wessels” would not generally be given access to stealth bomber schematics etc. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/58 "2021-10-14T17:14:20Z")
And: note from that list that “Restricted” **is not a United States classification level** , as derived from Executive Order 13526 (the establishing authority for classification in the United States). [https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Executive\_Order\_13526](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13526) However, “Restricted” is a classification marking in the NATO system. It would only be applied to information originally derived in NATO context, not US classified information. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/59 "2021-10-14T17:21:57Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > That would be Restricted, Confidential, Secret, Top Secret. > > There is also Q clearance for nuclear matters – both weapons and reactors. It’s gotten rather a bad reputation lately. DoD (Department of Defense) clearances are Confidential, Secret, and Top Secret. DoE (Department of Energy) clearances are Confidential, Secret, L, Top Secret, and Q. I used to have a Confidential DoD clearance when I worked on airborne RADAR and FLIR systems (many decades ago). I have done a lot of work for DoE sites (Hanford and Savannah River) but I have never held a DoE clearance. Any time I have been on site I had to be escorted (even into the bathroom). > [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > but access to such documents also assumes a “need to know”. Yep, absolutely. All classified documents are controlled. Just because I had a Confidential clearance didn’t mean that I could go and pull any document marked Confidential. I had to have a reason for needing the document. Also, just because certain areas were Confidential didn’t mean that I could just stroll in whenever I wanted. I had to have a reason to enter those areas. Rooms had access lists, and there were some rooms that I had access to but I did not have door access to. I could go into the room, but only if someone who was listed on the door access list opened the door for me. People think classified stuff is like James Bond. In reality it’s just a constant hassle of paperwork. Every little thing has to be tracked. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > IIRC “Restricted” is a catch-all term that includes both Classified info and unclassified info that still has markings (such as previously mentioned NOFORN) meant to restrict access. > **[Restricted Data](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restricted_Data)** > > Restricted Data (RD) is a category of proscribed information, per National Industrial Security Program Operating Manual (NISPOM). Specifically, it is defined by the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 as: > The concept was initially introduced, with similar wording, in the Atomic Energy Act of 1946. It was added at a relatively late moment to the bill by its creators, after the Gouzenko affair was leaked to the press and caused a fear of loss of "the secret" of the atomic bomb, as well as fears that the Esp... ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377/60 "2021-10-14T18:11:55Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > Rooms had access lists, and there were some rooms that I had access to but I did not have door access to. Luckily I’ve never worked in a facility that had that kind of restriction. Being DC area, though, I do hear tales of people who cannot even take their cell phones into their office space; they have to leave them in the car, or in a locker outside. Bathroom escort duty would really be a pain, too. It’s been interesting, in the 30 years I’ve been a Beltway Bandit (gov’t contractor), seeing personnel and IT requirements getting tightened down. In a few cases, a sudden rule tightening has cost projects a LOT of institutional knowledge - e.g. when they could hire non-citizens but suddenly changed that to citizens only. IT access has tightened down a lot, such as tracking when a USB drive is attached, to preventing such a drive from working at all; websites are often restricted on government networks (e.g. I could go to google maps but not gmail). The people who were arrested violated DoD policies re removing documents from the secured network, at a minimum; in fact unless the contractor copied them before access controls were in place, I’m a little puzzled as to how he managed it. As I understand it, that means either someone on the DoD side screwed up in setting up networking permissions / hardware controls / whatever, or there should be some kind of audit trail of when the documents were copied. Not relevant to this case, but some of the periodic training I’ve had to do points out that nonclassified information CAN be aggregated to tip off foreign intelligence that Something Is Up. IIRC, the example given was finding out that there was a larger-than-usual number of pizza deliveries to a Federal facility. Before the first Gulf War (this would have been in 1990-1991) supposedly the DC Metro system was noticeably less crowded because so many Pentagon etc. workers were pulling really screwy hours. I didn’t especially notice it at the time, as I’d always get on at the end of the line in the morning, meaning I got a seat and could zone out and not pay too much attention to the crowds. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-spy-scandal/952377.md?page=4)