# Submarine vs. air superiority **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 29, 2006, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-vs-air-superiority/378329 "2006-10-29T14:48:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-vs-air-superiority/378329/21 "2006-10-29T22:57:03Z")
Many have asked for some clarification for the OP, which I really don’t want to do since I want to keep it open to different situations. I can see if island hopping is possible under air cover it may be advantageous to have air superiority, but that is fuel intensive and you have to make sure you can get that type of fuel supply. Also can’t diesel electric subs operate at periscope depth while under diesel power making them very hard to spot via airplane? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-vs-air-superiority/378329/22 "2006-10-29T23:04:59Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Also can’t diesel electric subs operate at periscope depth while under diesel power making them very hard to spot via airplane? [/QUOTE] The Germans could do that late in the war, I don’t think the Japanese could but I’m not sure. Also, I’m pretty sure that by war’s end the “snorkel” could be seen on Alliied airborn radar. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-vs-air-superiority/378329/23 "2006-10-29T23:14:35Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Also can’t diesel electric subs operate at periscope depth while under diesel power making them very hard to spot via airplane? [/QUOTE] Germany was using the _Schnorkel_ in 1943. Like a swimmer’s snorkel, the _Schnorkel_ was a mast that brought air from the surface to run the Diesel engines. There are three problems I can think of with the _Schnorkel_. The first is that it creates a visible wake. The wake is not as easily spotted as a surfaced submarine, but it can still be seen. Second, the submarine is not far underwater. From the air you can see some distance into the ocean, and the submarine can still be spotted by reconaissance aircraft – perhaps after they have spotted the _Schnorkel_. The third problem is RADAR, with which the Allies had the upper hand. The _Schnorkel_ could be picked up by that. In 1939 or 1940 Germany experimented with the Walter engine, which used hydrogen peroxide decomposed by potassium permanganate to provide oxygen for the Diesel engines. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-vs-air-superiority/378329/24 "2006-10-29T23:18:13Z")
Sorry about the coding. I’ve asked to have it fixed. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-vs-air-superiority/378329/25 "2006-10-29T23:47:41Z")
Thanks, **samclem**. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-vs-air-superiority/378329/26 "2006-10-30T06:00:12Z")
I’m not a naval expert. I do, however, read enough to know that you can sink a submarine using aircraft. Good luck shooting down aircraft from a sub, though. ---
**Author:** ![looking\_busy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3be4f8/32.png) [@looking\_busy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/looking_busy)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-vs-air-superiority/378329/27 "2006-10-30T06:21:33Z")
What if we are talking about today’s technology where the need to surface is removed? How much difference would this make? Would air SUPREMACY be better, or could / would submarines prove to be such a threat so as to completely interdict shipping? Take it as given that this also includes carrier groups if you want to defend a convoy ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-vs-air-superiority/378329/28 "2006-10-30T06:25:48Z")
Control the air, control the world. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-vs-air-superiority/378329/29 "2006-10-30T14:10:48Z")
[QUOTE=Gatopescado] Control the air, control the world. [/QUOTE] Based on Malaya, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Gaza, Lebanon, etc., etc., etc, I think it’s fair to say that there’s a little bit more to it than that. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-vs-air-superiority/378329/30 "2006-10-30T16:39:31Z")
[QUOTE=slaphead] Based on Malaya, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Gaza, Lebanon, etc., etc., etc, I think it’s fair to say that there’s a little bit more to it than that. [/QUOTE] Exactly. The problem with aicraft is they can’t stay on station indefinitely. At the end of the day, you still need that guy with the rifle on the ground. I have to give the edge to shore-based anti-submarine aircraft. If need be they can flood an area with sonar-bouys and are immune from attack by the submarine. Also, submarines need to refuel and rearm somewhere (especially diesel subs). They have tender ships and sub bases that can be attacked from the air. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submarine-vs-air-superiority/378329.md?page=1)