# Submariners: What's a "firing point solution"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 18, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submariners-whats-a-firing-point-solution/317525 "2005-08-18T02:38:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submariners-whats-a-firing-point-solution/317525/21 "2005-08-19T13:39:56Z")
What exactly does “wire-guided” mean? I’ve heard it used for missiles as well. I presume we’re not talking about a physical wire running from the launching place to the torpedo / missile, right? ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submariners-whats-a-firing-point-solution/317525/22 "2005-08-19T13:48:53Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > What exactly does “wire-guided” mean? I’ve heard it used for missiles as well. I presume we’re not talking about a physical wire running from the launching place to the torpedo / missile, right? It is a physical pair of wires. Think of it like a spool of thread mounted on the rear of the weapon, with one flange cut off, so that the thread can fall off the end of the spool. Substitute very thin wire for the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submariners-whats-a-firing-point-solution/317525/23 "2005-08-19T13:53:17Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > It is a physical pair of wires. Think of it like a spool of thread mounted on the rear of the weapon, with one flange cut off, so that the thread can fall off the end of the spool. Substitute very thin wire for the thread. And it’s a guy in a control room at one of the wire who’s guiding it like a remote-controlled car? Same deal for missiles - imagine you’d run out of wire extremely quickly in that case. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submariners-whats-a-firing-point-solution/317525/24 "2005-08-19T14:09:38Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > And it’s a guy in a control room at one of the wire who’s guiding it like a remote-controlled car? Same deal for missiles - imagine you’d run out of wire extremely quickly in that case. It depends on the design of the weapon system. Some early wire-guided anti-tank missiles did use a joystick to control the missile, which is rather difficult for a soldier in the middle of a tank battle. Later systems used an optical sight attached to a guidance electronics box that sent course correction commands to the missile, so that the missile would hit whatever was in the cross-hairs of the optical sight. Since it is a two-way communications link, the weapons system designer can use it for many different functions. You would be surprised at how much wire can be wound on a relatively small bobbin. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submariners-whats-a-firing-point-solution/317525/25 "2005-08-19T14:15:54Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > How likely is it a torp would have been launched by accident? Especially if the torpedo room was in on it? Granted no harm being extra careful with a dangerous and expensive weapon but can a torpedo even be launched on a moment’s notice? I seem to recall that torpedoes needed to be “spun up” (or something) which I took to mean getting a gyroscope going which took some time. Add to that are torpedoes even carried loaded in the tubes? IANASubmariner of course…just curious. Perhaps too many WWII movies (I seem to remember from some sub simulation that some WWII era torpedoes had to have their batteries warmed prior to use…all-in-all a pain-in-the-arse to use them). What **BF** said. A loaded warshot could be launched relatively quickly, but it was all but impossible that any torpedo would have been inadvertently launched. That was the purpose of drill monitors (identified by their red ball caps). The drill monitor in the torpedo room would have prevented the torpedomen from even flooding the tube with the warshot. However, there was equipment that could be hooked up that would simulate to those in the control room that the torpedo had actually been launched. For even more realistic training, we would go to exercise ranges and actually engage other subs and surface ships, including shooting exercise torpedoes (no warhead). When the CO entered control during my surprise drill, I fully expected him to announce it was a drill. (For one thing, he was entirely too composed if a real torpedo was actually heading toward us.) When were on patrol, we had at least one warshot loaded and ready to go at all times. On some missions, all four tubes had warshots loaded. (A warshot is a live, armed torpedo with a warhead, as opposed to an exercise torpedo.) There’s not much point in having a snap shot procedure if you had to load the tube first. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submariners-whats-a-firing-point-solution/317525/26 "2005-08-19T17:49:12Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > And it’s a guy in a control room at one of the wire who’s guiding it like a remote-controlled car? Same deal for missiles - imagine you’d run out of wire extremely quickly in that case. Course corrections are sent via torpedo control monitor, where the operator can change speed, depth, search pattern and acoustic controls via switches. IIRC, the 48 ADCAP could be wire guided to at least 10,000 yards (a little over 5 miles). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submariners-whats-a-firing-point-solution/317525/27 "2005-08-19T21:07:59Z")
> [@robby](#): > > On some missions, all four tubes had warshots loaded. (A warshot is a live, armed torpedo with a warhead, as opposed to an exercise torpedo.) There’s not much point in having a snap shot procedure if you had to load the tube first. Understood but I just assumed that when tensions are low, the ship is in “safe” (home) waters and so on that having a warshot loaded may not be procedure. If you are hovering 5 miles off of the Russian coast I can see it being a different matter entirely. Still, if there is no downside to leaving a torpedo sitting in the tube then I guess why not? As mentioned I know older (much older circa WWII) torpedoes required a fair bit of preparation before launching so leaving one in the tubes indefinitely I do not think was really an option. But of course technology hs advanced quite a bit since then so I guess a torp can be in the tubes now the whole trip with no downside (or I guess I should ask is there a downside?). ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submariners-whats-a-firing-point-solution/317525/28 "2005-08-19T21:24:09Z")
> [@robby](#): > > For even more realistic training, we would go to exercise ranges and actually engage other subs and surface ships, including shooting exercise torpedoes (no warhead). Now how did that work? Did the body of the torpedo actually hit the target with some force, or stop just shy of it giving it a “lovetap”. Or on the other hand, did you just shoot at drones or empty hulls floating in the water? Tripler They use old F-4 Phantoms as drones for air-air practice. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submariners-whats-a-firing-point-solution/317525/29 "2005-08-19T23:42:39Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > Now how did that work? Did the body of the torpedo actually hit the target with some force, or stop just shy of it giving it a “lovetap”. Or on the other hand, did you just shoot at drones or empty hulls floating in the water? > > Tripler > They use old F-4 Phantoms as drones for air-air practice. In Clancy’s Patriot Games, the exercise torpedo would be programmed to turn away at the last second(at which point, if it were a real torpedo, the submarine would be dead). ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submariners-whats-a-firing-point-solution/317525/30 "2005-08-20T13:05:02Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > Now how did that work? Did the body of the torpedo actually hit the target with some force, or stop just shy of it giving it a “lovetap”. Or on the other hand, did you just shoot at drones or empty hulls floating in the water? Taking the liberty to respond for **robby** ; no, the 48 is an influenced mode weapon. Basically, if the weapon senses the target (electro-magnetically or via acoustic sensing) it detonates. The 48 is designed to detonate under the hull, creating a massive air bubble, rather than penetrating the hull directly. During exercises the practice torpedo is loaded with recording equipment, which record the firing solution at launch, the course corrections, target acquisition and re-attack data. After shut-down, the torpedo floats to the surface for retrieval. Prosecution of a surface target during training can include everything up to firing a “water slug”, ie, launching a torpedo tube full of water, and the post launch procedures, verification of (simulated) detonation, and escape and evasion. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submariners-whats-a-firing-point-solution/317525/31 "2005-08-20T13:42:46Z")
> [@BF](#): > > Ex-bubble head here, **mks57** is dead on target. The HFRO was one of the most detailed and factual books/movie on sub warfare and caused quite a stir among the sub community when it came out because some of the stuff was still considered classified info. A section tracking party can spend many hours tracking a target, only to have to completely scrap the solution because the target changed course, depth, or speed. The protocol is when at battle stations and a firing point solution has been derived, the CO or XO will announce firing point procedures, in essence preparing for launch. Not much to add here, but back in the late eighties, I met a guy that designed sonar systems for the navy. He asked if I had read HFRO. I had and asked him how accurate it was. His comment was that when it was published, the sonar info was within about 5 years of being current and correct. FTR an ex-bubble head at my company was amazed at some of the stories published in Blind Man’s Bluff. He thought they were still classified. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submariners-whats-a-firing-point-solution/317525/32 "2005-08-20T15:02:18Z")
> [@BF](#): > > During exercises the practice torpedo is loaded with recording equipment, which record the firing solution at launch, the course corrections, target acquisition and re-attack data. After shut-down, the torpedo floats to the surface for retrieval. Oh no kidding! That’s cool! Sounds like you load something similar to a “black box” in place of the warhead, and play it back for training. You learn something new every day. Tripler Man, I’m glad I started this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/submariners-whats-a-firing-point-solution/317525.md?page=1)