Subtext behind many anti-SSM arguments

Otto, upon reflection I don’t see this as a convincing argument in favor of SSMs. This will just indicate your criminal nature.

YOu don’t have to convince me, but I might be a good person to practice on as I’m far more liberal than average. And I don’t believe I said I was against SSMs, just that there were certain aspects I considered creepy. But I believe the majority of US voters is against the idea of SSMs and you do have convince them. I don’t think name-calling and implications of stupidity are gonna do it.

YOu seem to have missed the part about this stability mostly not happening. The current divorce rate is around 50% and has been for some time. That’s stable?

Let’s just say that if there was a Defense of Marriage item on the ballot for me to vote on that I would vote against it, except that if it was the only thing on the ballot I wouldn’t even bother going to vote. I don’t think too many people care very intensely about this issue but those who do are against it, and what pro-SSM folks need to do is nullify the negatives for those people. Which I don’t see happening.

I don’t think the desire to have spousal communications legally shielded from being revealed indicates a criminal nature, and I think it’s wrong to assume any such thing.

I was going to also add: The important thing is that spousal communications have the legal right to remain confidential. Otto shouldn’t be presumed to have a criminal nature merely because he wants the same legal privileges as heterosexual married couples have.

What the “right not to testify against your spouse” law is about is that the government is saying, the two people are one, and so if someone has the right not to self-incriminate, then that applies to one’s spouse. What that law does is place the marriage above society, on a pedestal. Without that, civil unions would be cheaper, even if for the vast majority of people, that right would never need to be exercised.

Yes, this is true.

Because innocent people are never wrongly put on trial in America.

Anyway, I wasn’t advancing spousal privilege as an argument for SSM. You said that one could avoid testifying against another without being married to that person. I would like you to back up that claim.

Thanks so much for your support. Are there any other minorities whose civil rights you deem so unimportant that you wouldn’t vote against their infringement as long as you had something better to do that day?

Point of order, Otto. That claim was advanced by Truth Seeker, not Cicada2003.

Heh. It’s a shame you’ll never quite realize how utterly risible this is. I categorically do not hate gay people or gay rights – on the contrary. I am, however, not so keen on self-righteous morons with poor reading comprehension. Earlier in this thread, for example, I expressed my concern about a gay Plessy. Go and google Plessy v. Ferguson. Actually thinking isn’t as much fun as high moral dudgeon, but you might find it makes a change.

If by “self-righteous” you mean “unwilling to feel segregation is acceptable on a point not a part of the state’s interest” then I will wear the badge, Truth Seeker. If by “non-self-righteous” you mean “requiring gays walk into my catch-22 of proving the rights they request won’t have negative effects before I can give them the rights”, then you might want to be at least a little self-righteous.

You don’t want another Plessy? And pray tell, how are you avoiding it?

Yes indeed, applying the “separate but equal” idea to gay people would not be a good idea. That seems to contradict your argument, Truth Seeker.

No, its not about logic. It’s about practical politics and getting things done. How do you think Roe v. Wade would have been decided had it reached the U.S. Supreme Court 10 or 20 years earlier? The ban on interracial marriage was only struck down in 1967, after it was a dead letter in most states. That’s not the case with gay marriage today since no state currently authorizes it and almost 2/3 of the American public is against it. It is extremely unlikely that the U.S. Supreme Court will get that far out in front of the U.S. mainstream, especially on a hot button social issue like this. Rather, it will almost certainly punt and leave it to the states. Indeed, a U.S. Supreme Court opinion requiring states to permit gay marriage could turn out to be a pyrrhic victory since nothing would give more impetus to Bush’s proposed constitutional amendment.

So what to do? It’s true that you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. But you catch even more with a flyswatter.

American liberals could learn a lot from American conservatives. After the conservative movement got its butt kicked in the 1960s, it decided that the only way forward was to develop closely-reasoned and researched arguments for their policies. It went on to pour an enormous amount of intellectual energy into things like welfare reform. Consequently, American conservatives have regularly been beating liberals hollow in the policy debate. They have been doing so not on the strength of their convictions but on the strength of their arguments. This achievement is not necessarily an endorsement of conservative philosophy. It’s not really much of a debate when one side shows up with white papers and research and the other side shows up with Al Sharpton.

Many American liberals have a strong tendency to believe that the strength of their convictions is somehow evidence for the rightness of their cause. They seem to think that people who disagree with them are simply hard-of-hearing and that if they repeat their beliefs loud enough and often enough everyone will eventually say “Ehh? What? Oh, of course!”

Well, it doesn’t work that way. What you need to do is build yourself a flyswatter out of facts and argument. So far, the level of discourse has been abysmal. “We demand our rights! How dare you not agree with us!” This convinces no one who doesn’t already agree and, in fact, hardens opposition in people who might otherwise be open-minded. Develop a few actual arguments instead. Reasoning with people is always more effective than hectoring them. Albeit not, perhaps, as entertaining.

I think you’re not listening, then. I’ve seen nothing but a great bunch of reasoned discourse on the matter. Of course, for actual discourse I go to places where people discuss things, like message boards, or court decisions like the MA decision. Those contrary to SSM seem only to have historicism on their side. Some also have semantics.

Fucking weak.

At this point, I have to wonder if your obstinacy is intentional. The arguments are out there. One side has logic. The other has historicism. Do I look like someone who would be convinced that we should all be hunter gatherers because the majority of human history puts us in that position? Does anyone seem to believe that?

We already had one. Google Bowers v Hardwick. Luckily our Plessy was overturned much more quickly than Plessy was.

No, by “self-righteous” I mean being so wrapped up in the cause that you don’t believe you need to bother to convince anyone else. “I believe in it so strongly, it must be completely obvious to everyone, right?” Fegh.

Nor is it a Catch-22. I’ve already described one way to gather data. Given the inanities that so many doctoral candidates do a thesis on, I’d be surprised if such an interesting and socially relevant topic has been completely neglected.

Well, for example, I’m taking time to argue on a message board about the need to mobilize policy arguments instead of just trumpeting rhetoric. Newsom & Co., by contrast, are practically begging for one.

None of you seem to actually appreciate the dynamics of the current situation. Newsom has set into motion a chain of events that will almost certainly end up before the U.S. Supreme Court, probably late in the next presidency. Stevens is over 80 and O’Connor is also likely to retire, not to mention Rehnquist. It’s quite likely that three appointments will come up in the next presidential term. If Bush is the president, you can bet he’ll make quite certain of any nominee’s position on gay marriage. If it’s Kerry, there’s a slightly better chance, but not great. No politician is going to get that far out in front of mainstream opinion on this issue. Clinton, you’ll recall, signed the DOMA.

In summary, if a gay marriage case comes up before the U.S. Supreme Court now, the odds are extremely good that proponents of gay marriage are hosed.

Funny, I’ve seen mostly rhetorical masturbation. The closest thing I’ve seen to an actual policy argument here is that gays should be able to marry so they won’t have to testify against their partners in court. Somehow, I don’t think that’s going to tip the balance for middle america.

The people getting so upset in this thread seem to think that it’s insulting have to make policy arguments because they are right. This kind of thinking is usually the preserve of religious fundamentalists and people in tinfoil hats. It’s not appropriate for people attempting to bring about real social change.

Oh, and just to clear up a bit of confusion from Otto, I said that as a practical matter, it’s not that hard to avoid testifying against your spouse and it’s not. Just remember the two phrases, “I don’t know” and “I don’t remember.” If this is your mantra from the beginning of the police investigation right through the trial, it’s pretty unlikely you’d ever be called to testify. Once again, the real value of the marital privilege is that you, as a defendant, can prevent your spouse from testifying even if s/he wants to.

Truth Seeker, the problem with trying to argue for SSM on the grounds that it will somehow make life better for the average American is, I don’t think it will. It won’t make it worse, either. For your average Joe Heterosexual, SSM isn’t going to affect them at all, one way or the other. If we pin all our arguments on, “It’ll make things better for everyone,” and the data comes back saying, “Ain’t gonna happen that way,” we’re pretty much fucked, aren’t we? I think the only way to win this debate is to keep hammering on the idea that it’s nobody’s business except the two people up there in front of the Justice of the Peace. All the good arguments are on our side, and there are none on the other: It’s not going to hurt anyone, it’s not going to be forced on anyone who doesn’t want to participate, a lot of gay people really, really want it, so why not give it to them? The only argument on the other side of the fence is, “We hate gays.” That’s it. And while 2/3 of the country might be against gay marriage, I don’t think 2/3 of the country are genuinely bigotted against gays: they just don’t care enough to challenge the status quo. The more we hammer at the genuine bigots, the more mainstream America is going to distance itself from that end of the spectrum. The actions of Gavin Newsom and the double handful of other politicians and beureucrats who have started marrying gays under the own iniative are exactly what we need to force this issue. Is it too early? I think it’s exactly the right time, but that’s ultimatly impossible to say until after the dust settles. But if we keep waiting until just the right moment, we’re going to end up waiting for the rest of our lives.

I believe you’ll find an interesting GD thread from anthropologists. If you’re looking for discourse, that is.

I think it is our disgust with them that forbids a neutral stand, Truth Seeker.

Maybe. But I am not particularly sure we need politicians to get out in front of the issue.

I don’t know. I see a 5-4 decision. That’s not exactly a landslide.

Somehow, I don’t give a fuck about whether middle america thinks I’m an idiot for exercizing my fifth amendment rights, should the opportunity present itself. They’re there in the consitution. I think it is pretty easy to find legal arguments that gay marriage should not be forbidden because the state has no pressing interest to do so by referencing previous court cases, both on federal levels and state levels. The majority opinion in MA seemed to do a lot of this work for me, and I read the majority opinion with glee because it makes sense. The dissenting opinion was grasping at such straws as indicating that nothing forbid homosexuals to marry the opposite sex, so there is no way the law was discriminatory. If you think for a second that we can sit this justice down and present a case to him and he’ll change his mind, I’ll agree with you that someone is masturbating… but it ain’t me.

Yes, it is insulting to have to fucking ask for rights everyone else is permitted. What a shocker.

I don’t think history supports that conclusion.

Agreed, the nerve of some people, demanding the same rights as everyone else. It’s just so wrong! :rolleyes:

I disagree. The actions initiated by Newsom are being done under the constitution of the state of California. The Supreme Court of the United States has no authority to review the decisions of the California supreme court absent any claim of federal constitutional violation. There has not been to my knowledge any claim made that Newsom’s actions raise any federal question.

Good reason to vote for a Democrat for president, then, who won’t make either support for or opposition to SSM a litmus test for his judicial appointments.

You are reducing the argument to absurdity. The point has been raised repeatedly that marriage provides access to over 1,000 federal rights and benefits and an unknown number of state benefits which same-sex couples are excluded from. That one or a dozen or a hundred of those rights might be available through some other costly and time-consuming process is not an excuse for denying SSM, and there are innumerable of those rights which can’t be secured by any method other than marriage. Spousal privilege is one, and regardless of your rather idiotic assertion that mumbling “I don’t know” and “I don’t remember” on the witness stand will keep the same-sex partner of a defendant out of jail on a contempt citation, that is in fact a marital privilege which can’t be contracted by any other means.

Here’s another, very personal to me. I am in love with a man who has immigrated from another country. If I could marry him, he would be eligible for permanent resident status. Since I can’t marry him, we live in fear of the knowledge that he is subject to deportation at any moment and our being together for a day or a year or a decade would be meaningless to the INS. How could he potentially stay here? By entering into a sham marriage with a woman whom he would pay. Tell me, which marriage would honor the sanctity of marriage more, ours based on love or a mock wedding to get a green card?

But that’s not the way it works, Otto. If you raise a state constitutional claim, you will always raise a corresponding federal constitutional claim as a back-up in case you lose at the state level. So it will play out like this. If the California Supreme Court strikes down gay marriage, San Francisco will appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court. If the U.S. Supreme Court denies cert, one (or probably more) of the newly-married couples will file an action in federal court raising federal constitutional grounds. It would be pretty hard for the U.S. Supreme Court not to take that case since the Ninth Circuit would probably uphold gay marriage. Winning in the Ninth Circuit is, of course, the kiss of death at the U.S. Supreme Court.

Let’s suppose, however, that the California Supreme Court upholds gay marriage. Within a week, someone will have filed a federal case in a state with a DOMA claiming that DOMAs are unconstitutional. Once again, there is no way the Supreme Court could avoid this case.

Do you see the inherent tension in these two positions? This is exactly what I’ve been trying to point out. You cannot argue on one hand that “It’s nobody’s business but ours.” while arguing on the other hand that gays should be allowed to marry so they can get access to a big bundle of rights and benefits. These rights and benefits are not somehow constitutionally mandated. They’re offered by society to help achieve certain goals. In other words, they represent policy decisions. The way to convince society that gays deserve those same rights and benefits is to demonstrate that offering them to same-sex couples will help achieve the same goals.

Let’s take an example from private industry. Married workers have traditionally been allowed to carry their spouses on their health insurance. Companies offered this benefit because it helped them retain good employees. This benefit was not available, however, to unmarried couples. Over the last few years, however, a number of companies have begun providing insurance plans that do allow unmarried couples, whether same sex or otherwise, to carry their partners on their insurance. Why? Because doing so furthered their goal of retaining good employees.

The beauty of these kinds of argument is that they are convincing to everyone, even conservatives. Who can argue with something like, “A study by the Rand Corporation reveals that gay marriage will save 1.3 billion dollars annually in health care costs.”

I am frankly baffled that no one is even making an attempt to do this. I don’t think it’s that difficult. For example, while I have no data, I would assume that gays in long-term committed relationships are, on average, healthier than gays who aren’t in committed relationships if for no other reason than that they have fewer partners and, therefore, less exposure to STDs. Therefore, society should encourage long-term committed relationships for gays.
Q.E.D.

Would it be hard to conduct such a study? Not at all, a sophmore psychology major could do it. In fact, I have great difficulty believing that such a study hasn’t been done.

The problem is, Otto, that he wouldn’t be unless the U.S. Supreme Court goes the whole hog like Massachusetts did. Otherwise, the federal government will not, at least currently, recognize same-sex marriages for immigration purposes even if some states allow them.

This is, once again, exactly what I’m concerned about. If you make everybody takes sides on the issue today, gay marriage will almost certainly go down in flames. Worse, having been decided, the issue won’t be re-visited for decades. Legal action at this point is going to be a slow-motion disaster – yet that’s exactly where this battle is being fought.

With political action, like civil unions and even marriage in some states, however, the thing will be a fait accompli in ten years.

Truth Seeker, there are just so many ways you are wrong, that, forgive me, but I really just think you don’t know what you are talking about in this case.

From your suggestion that 43 will use a judge’s position on SSM as a litmus test for Supreme Court nominations to the shameful idea that it’s acceptable for a partner in a civil union to say “I don’t know” or “I don’t remember” in order to “likely” avoid testifying against their partners at trial - I presume even in cases where that partner DOES know or DOES remember, which would then be lying.

Anyway, I found this particularly objectionable:

Marriage IS a basic, fundamental human right. That’s old news.

Your suggestion that marriage is a “bundle” of rights and responsibilities which government doles out only after it’s been proven that your proposed marriage will help meet government’s policy goals is, frankly, reminiscent of communism, aside from simply being wrong.

It’s also kind of offensive to couples who married solely or primarily because - get this - they loved each other.