In practice, there are times that a dub is acceptable. Take Bruce Lee’s Hong Kong movies, say The Big Boss or Fist of Fury. The actors played their scenes speaking whatever their native language was (Cantonese, Mandarin, English). When the movies were prepared for their various markets, all of the dialog was dubbed into whatever language was dominant in that market, including the dialog that was spoken in that language in the first place. This was done because rerecording all of the dialog was cheaper than looping only the parts spoken in a different language. In other words, there is no version of these movies that has the dialog recorded as the actors spoke it, so if you’re going to watch a dub anyway, it might as well be one in a language you understand.
In more modern Hong Kong action movies, big name stars will sometimes dub themselves–Jackie Chan does almost all of his own dubs, and Michelle Yeoh does most of hers. Compare the dubs to the Hong Kong imports and you’ll find that the dialog here is often looped (rerecorded over the original dialog while leaving sound effects and music unaffected), unless it’s a Disney/Dimension property (most or Jet Li’s movies), in which case they just replace the entire soundtrack. It’s hard to pick between the fantatstic looking picture on the Dimension discs and the original soundtrack on the Hong Kong imports, but when they can get the original actors to dub themselves, the dub is acceptable. And the voice actor who dubs Li is a better actor in English than Li is.
Anime is hit or miss. Perfect Blue and Princess Mononoke have perfectly acceptable dubs, but most others don’t measure up; it seems the translators don’t want to go to the trouble to get actual actors with acting talent to do the dubs. The problem isn’t matching dialog to lip movements–that isn’t a convention in anime the way it is in American animation–it’s poor voice acting due to small budgets or having the movie dubbed by ESL Japanese voice actors reading dialog translated by ESL Japanese translators. Ideally a dub should be written, or at least edited to get idiom correct, by native writers of the language being dubbed and performed by native language voice actors. And children should be voiced by children.
Live action dramas should always be subtitled. The actor’s vocal performance is too important a part of the overall performance to be discarded in favor of pandering to the illiterate.
Burned in subtitles should always be removed and replaced by electronically imposed titles, which should be either yellow or black outlined–plain white subtitles, especially the burned in type, can easily disappear in bright scenes. Subtitles should always appear entirely within the film frame, not below it.
Hardly matters-- all of the Jackie Chan movies I’ve seen, I watched in the late eighties-- on tapes a friend brought back from Japan-- dubbed in Japanese, and subtitled – in Korean and Chinese. (The Chinese to avoid dialect confusion?)
Didn’t detract from my enjoyment (or comprehension) of the film in the slightest. I guess that’s why them call 'em action movies.
Number Six, I agree with your opinions about what makes a good sub – although one thing puzzles me a bit: “Subtitles should always appear entirely within the film frame, not below it.” Why is this? I’ve seen a few letterboxed films with the subtitling below, and rather liked it. Would I miss out on the subtitles, (or be forced to watch a smaller image) if I had I had a wide aspect-ratio TV?
On DVD, subtitles should always appear below the film frame. There’s no reason to gunk up the frame with stuff that wasn’t supposed to be there in the first place.
I have an old copy of Evangelion, episode 24, dubbed. The actors are all awful, but Kyle Sturdivant, playing Kaworu, does make up for it with what sounds like a deliberately campy performance. He sounds like he just stepped off the set of the Rocky Horror Picture Show.
Spike whatever-his-last-name-is refused to do some of the translated lines because they embarassed him, so they rewrote parts of that episode for him. Quiet, robotic Rei sounds forceful and aggressive, and Misato’s voice actress sounds like she got her acting experience in porn.
The answer for me is definitely subbed over dubbed.
This is impossible, though, when you’re dealing with DVDs that have 16:9 anamorphic video transfers. These transfers are pretty much the norm nowadays and consist of about 30% more scan lines to provide a higher resolution picture. Everything in this unprocessed image would look vertically stretched and take up the entire TV screen. Therefore, DVD players either toss away the extra lines (called downconverting) to ouput the video to a conventional TV or send the entire image to a 16:9 capable TV that can compress the scan lines to the appropriate aspect ratio.
Essentially, the black bars are not part of the original video transfer but, rather, are created either by the DVD or TV respectively. Hence, its impossible to set the subtitles below the picture in an anamorphic transfer.
I hope that was clear enough. Some of this technical stuff can get quite complicated.
I usually go for subs, even for films where they hired decent voice actors. Billy-Bob Thorton and Jaida Pinkett-Smith are both fine actors, but Princess Mononoke just seems jarring when Jiko has a southern accent and Toki has an LA accent.
I prefer dubbing. I actually tend not to watch movies that are subtitled if the spoken parts are in languages that I’m unfamiliar with. I spend all my time reading the subtitles, and miss what’s going on action-wise. I like subtitles to help you catch something you didn’t hear correctly, but not to make sense of the movie.
Live action I want to get the original language. I’m seeing the actors and I want to get their entire performance.
Animation I don’t mind dubbing. Unlike live action movies I find it difficult to appreciate a performance in another language that I don’t understand when it is just the speech. On top of that, the vast majority of Japanese voice actors just don’t come across as being particularly good to me, often alternating between a muted monotone and screeching at the top of their lungs. If I spoke Japanese fluently then perhaps I could appreciate the performances but I can’t. Dub into English I can understand (and fortunately if I decide I don’t like the dub, switch it to Japanese). I decide every show on a case by case basis and always start with the English dub. (FWIW, anything dubbed by Ocean I almost always turn to Japanese immediately. Anything dubbed by Animaze I often find superior to the Japanese performances.)
And Portugal, actually, though there’s a disturbing recent trend to dub some things. Fortunately, not everything gets the treatment. Mostly kid’s cartoons, since it’s easier for them not to have to read a lot, but do you know how hysterical Dawson’s Creek is in in Portuguese? Hysterical. I’ve never actually watched the original, but this is prime comedy material. Or Friends? Funny. Especially since Portugal is such a tiny country that the same actors do everything, so the guys who do Friends also do Dragon Ball. This is great comedy, I tell you.
It’s incredibly annoying when I go somewhere else in Europe, or watch European cable and satellite, and they ruin everything with dubbing. First of all, I can’t understand a thing unless it’s Spanish or French, and even then, worse than English. Second of all, don’t they know that’s not how these guys sound? I mean…what’s the point in watching Terminator when it’s a cheesy Spanish guy saying ‘Hasta la vista, baby?’. No point whatsoever.
Perhaps it’s because I read so much anyway, but I find that, when watching a subtitled movie, I “transparently” understand it. That is to say, I hear the actors, I read the text, and my brain processes it as understanding the actor speaking. So there’s no difference on that count. And since subtitles are generally a better translation than dubs (why is this, anyway? If they’re going to translate it well for the subtitles, why not give that version to the voiceover actors?), I prefer the subtitles.
Of course, there can be incongruities. I remember once I was watching a film which took place in Quebec, dialog in French but with English subtitles. In one scene, they’re in a hospital, and the main character is talking to the doctors in English. So the “translated for U.S. release” subtitles gave way for that part, and we were left with the original French subtitles, for the benefit of the Quebequois audience. Ironically, her accent was so bad that I still found it easier to read the subtitles than to understand what she was saying.
Chronos, I know what you mean by “transparently” understanding subtitled movies. By about halfway through something like Life Is Beautiful I’ve usually forgotten that I’m reading the dialogue instead of hearing it.
One time I watched Le Femme Nikita (the original French movie, not the TV Series) and about half way through, I started doing something that distracted me from the screen. I caught myself turning it up, and then realized how dumb that was, because I don’t speak French. Turning it up didn’t help any.
On a widescreen anamorphic dvd, for technical reasons Hodge already explained, the subs cannot be below the frame. The problem occurs with non-anamorphic widesrcreen. On Fist of Legend (available only as a dub, albeit a very good one), some early scenes set in Japan are subbed, and some of the subtitles are lost at the bottom of the frame. This happens quite a bit with improperly subbed titles.
When reading subtitles that are within the film frame, you are looking directly at the film itself while reading them. When reading subtitles that are below the film frame, you are looking outside the film frame.
Subtitles are within the film frame in the first place. See any subtitled foreign language movie in a theater, and where do you find the subtitles?
Having recently purchased Run Lola Run on DVD, I decided to watch a single scene with the dubbed voices just to see what it sounded like.
It is a very, very good thing I do not own a gun, because my roomate would have had to deal with fragments of my skull and brain all over the carpet two sentences into the scene.
[quote]
This is impossible, though, when you’re dealing with DVDs that have 16:9 anamorphic video transfers.
[snip]
Essentially, the black bars are not part of the original video transfer but, rather, are created either by the DVD or TV respectively. Hence, its impossible to set the subtitles below the picture in an anamorphic transfer.
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Not always. Anything that’s wider than 16:9 will have part of the black bars generated by the player/TV (or no generated black bars if it’s a 16:9 set) , and part in the video frame.
I much prefer the subtitled version of Das Boot, but then I used to speak German fluently (more years ago than I like to remember) so I guess I’m picking up a bit of the language.
Cowboy Bebop on the other hand I much prefer hearing the dub. Maybe it’s because I first watched it on Cartoon Network and got used to the English voices, but somehow the dubbed version just works better for me. Though Bebop is a pretty good dub in any case.
Once upon a time, I lived in Switzerland and watched a movie (English soundtrack) which was subtitlde into both French and German. Fully a third of the screen was taken up with text!
I watched Diabolique. It was really dubbed well, but I wish I could see it with subtitles. I remember a movie I’ve “read” as having “heard” it in English.
I don’t think I’ve ever noticed subtitles leaving out lots of words. That’s done with closed captioning. I’ve noticed on the news they leave out whole paragraphs.
Anyone deaf a member of SDMB? They’d get almost nothing out of a foreign language movie dubbed. They can always read the subtitles.
Hodge, I think we have a failure to communicate here. Just to be clear for the lurkers, if you play a widescreen DVD (anamorphic or not) and have your DVD player set up to output to a conventional television, you will see the subtitles below the image, in the black bars.
(On DVDs–well, good DVDs, anyway–subtitles are not an intrinsic part of the image, but are rather superimposed as a separate step. This is why you can turn them off. Subtitles are not affected by anamorphic stretching.)
Of course, if you’re watching a widescreen movie on a widescreen TV, the subtitles will probably appear over the picture, as there’s no place else to put them–the picture occupies the entire screen.
NumberSix: Of course subtitles appear over the picture when a film is shown in a theatre. This is due to sheer necessity: on film, subtitles must be an intrinsic part of the image.
However, doing this wipes out part of the image. Directors and DPs are not happy with this. Who wants part of their carefully planned shot covered up with text? DVD does much better than film in this regard: the viewer can turn the subtitles off and see the whole picture if he wants.
No matter where they are, subtitles are a distraction. The viewer is constantly looking at the bottom of the screen instead of at the center of the image. Plus, of course, some people find reading subtitles tiresome. (I pity the ten year old in front of me at CTHD who turned to his mom and asked, “Is the WHOLE THING written out like this?”) Subtitles reduce your immersion in the movie.
Subtitles may be a lesser evil than a (bad) dub. Subtitles may be a necessary evil. But they’re still evil. Where’s a babelfish–the book one, not the Web one–when you need it?
