# Subtle racism more dangerous when we downplay it or bring it to the forefront? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 8, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662 "2011-04-08T14:44:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/41 "2011-04-09T23:04:53Z")
I vote possible subtle racism, but part of the problem is I’ve never lived in your area, so I don’t really know. I think if this happened to you here, some of the questions would seem to be the guy trying to figure out how you are affording the services; and part of him wondering is because of color. (Then again, if that happened here the guy would be asking you where you went to church, and where is your mama and daddy from, and what college ball team you root for, whether you like Ford or Chevy, etc. ) Or maybe I’m pessimistic. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/42 "2011-04-10T00:08:46Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > What is neutral to some is obviously not neutral to others. The OP is perfectly free to feel bothered by the doctor’s questions. And the doctor is free to keep being nosy. But one day, the latter is going to pick the wrong person to interrogate (seriously, why did he have to ask ALL those questions? Why not just a couple?) People need to quit being so damn talkative and just get down to business, for pete’s sake. Makes for less trouble in the long run. “What do you do for a living?” is not an interrogation. It’s a question that most people wouldn’t think twice about, much less get upset over. I don’t work, but pretty much every doctor I went to has asked me where I go to school. The doctor asked OP a question that white people get asked all the time. What should the doctor have done differently? If he didn’t ask the question, then it could also mean he doesn’t like getting to know black people. If the OP is going to go around projecting his own fears into neutral actions then it’s going to get him nowhere. He’s free to do it if he wants, but what’s the point? > [@](#): > > From my experience, white people tend to be more familiar with strangers than black people are. Not saying that black people are more private or aloof, but they don’t tend to get all up in someone’s business as a way of making small talk. I hate small talk as well. It’s not just a black person thing. The thing is that no one gives a shit. Most of the world uses small talk to connect with each other. It’s not even about the substance of what is said, it’s all about the gesture of talking to someone, which opens an invitation to talk back and to get to know each other. I don’t think the doctor was supposed to look at a black guy and go “black people like small talk less than white people, so I should tone it down.” Do you? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/43 "2011-04-10T01:35:12Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > I don’t think the doctor was supposed to look at a black guy and go “black people like small talk less than white people, so I should tone it down.” Do you? Of course not. But I have a feeling the OP wasn’t throwing off a lot of signals that screamed, “Ask my kid and I every question under the sun!” either. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/44 "2011-04-10T01:39:45Z")
I think it is next to impossible for a white person to understand what a lifetime of subtle (and not so subtle) racism and being treated as “less than” does to your psyche. Of course this incident seems harmless to people who take being treated with respect and dignity as a given. It is easy for people who don’t have the same life experience to tell you that you have a chip on your shoulder, or that questioning this is an overreaction. I don’t think they are being jerks for feeling that way, but I do think it indicates significant ignorance and lack of overlapping experience on their part. . . I think if you came away from that appointment with unease, and even thought to wonder if it was or wasn’t racism, that it probably was. After all, I assume this wasn’t the first time something like this got your spidey senses tingling. . . Does that mean the doc is on par with a klansman? Of course not, but his attitude was certainly enough to make you question whether or not you want to continue as his patient. And I don’t think that’s an overreaction at all. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/45 "2011-04-10T03:31:07Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Of course not. But I have a feeling the OP wasn’t throwing off a lot of signals that screamed, “Ask my kid and I every question under the sun!” either. No one is sending those kinds of signals. You can ask anyone about where they work when you’re making small talk. > [@Indygrrl](#): > > I think it is next to impossible for a white person to understand what a lifetime of subtle (and not so subtle) racism and being treated as “less than” does to your psyche. Of course this incident seems harmless to people who take being treated with respect and dignity as a given. It is easy for people who don’t have the same life experience to tell you that you have a chip on your shoulder, or that questioning this is an overreaction. I don’t think questioning anything is an overreaction. An overreaction would be taking some action because of what the doctor asked. I would even argue that not answering with a direct occupation was a bit too defensive. > [@](#): > > I don’t think they are being jerks for feeling that way, but I do think it indicates significant ignorance and lack of overlapping experience on their part. Before you go assuming all white people don’t know what they are talking about, consider that some white people have seen racist behavior from people who usually hide it. They might be in a better position to know who’s racist than black people who have to make vague guesses about neutral behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/46 "2011-04-10T04:58:26Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Before you go assuming all white people don’t know what they are talking about, consider that some white people have seen racist behavior from people who usually hide it. They might be in a better position to know who’s racist than black people who have to make vague guesses about neutral behavior. I don’t think that’s what I said. I’m white, and I have some idea of what I’m talking about most of the time. But I won’t pretend that I can truly understand the day-to-day experiences of black people, or other minorities. When one of my girlfriends tells anecdotes about “minor” (to her, I’d freak out! lol) incidents that happen every single day, I realize just how much of a charmed life I live. We take so many things for granted, being treated politely, not being eyed suspiciously, not hearing whispers, and not having our dentists ask 20 frickin’ questions. I always tell her if I had to deal with the stuff she does that I would most definitely have a chip on my shoulder. She laughs and tells me you can either go around like that, or you can let it roll off like water off a duck’s back and keep going with your life, not allowing other people to decide who you are and what your worth is. I love her for that. Her strength and grace speak for her, rather than letting any racist a-hole engage her in a stupid conflict over a place in line at the convenience store. Again, I say, I’d flip out if I got treated that way. Whenever I hear someone say something about “angry” black folks, I wanna say, “Duh!” (Not that I feel all black people are angry, just that I couldn’t fault them if they were.) ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/47 "2011-04-10T05:26:11Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > We take so many things for granted, being treated politely, not being eyed suspiciously, not hearing whispers, and not having our dentists ask 20 frickin’ questions. I always tell her if I had to deal with the stuff she does that I would most definitely have a chip on my shoulder. She laughs and tells me you can either go around like that, or you can let it roll off like water off a duck’s back and keep going with your life, not allowing other people to decide who you are and what your worth is. I love her for that. Her strength and grace speak for her, rather than letting any racist a-hole engage her in a stupid conflict over a place in line at the convenience store. The dentist didn’t do anything that my doctor doesn’t do. I agree that there are a lot of things black people go through that I don’t, but this isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![war\_van](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@war\_van](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/war_van)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/48 "2011-04-10T06:36:07Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > In the Doc’s defense, he’s an orthodontist. Most of what they do is cosmetic. (I think. Enter some orthodontist to tell me about jaw cancer or something). We were referred there because my dentist thought there might be deep down gum disease in my son’s mouth. ---
**Author:** ![war\_van](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@war\_van](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/war_van)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/49 "2011-04-10T06:40:31Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > The fact that you think it is important to note how many black people live in your neighborhood & how re-districting is re-segregation, and you find something racist about someone asking what you do for a living tells me you may be a bit preoccupied with race. > > In the least, you have a giant chip on your shoulder. Noting how so few black people live in my neighborhood was an indicator as to why the doc would find it odd that I live there. Redistricting the school district homogenized it as before it was very diverse when kids were being bussed to the school of their choice. I initially mentioned the racial divide here geographically. ---
**Author:** ![war\_van](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@war\_van](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/war_van)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/50 "2011-04-10T06:41:37Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > This is exactly why I prefer overt racism. I actually don’t see anything racist in the OP, but how do I know - I wasn’t there. I have had instances where it certainly felt like racism - everyone else being helped in the room, for example, while no one makes eye contact with my SO or me, and no one offers to help me, and everyone else in the room just happens to be white. But is that racism? It certainly felt like it at the time and I would still swear it was - but people would have a thousand reasons why it wasn’t racism. > > People will always doubt your story. My wife and I always say we miss NYC because when someone hated you, you definitely knew it. ---
**Author:** ![war\_van](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@war\_van](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/war_van)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/51 "2011-04-10T06:42:50Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > … Sorry for the confusion, I paid via check. I meant cash in as not credit or health insurance. ---
**Author:** ![war\_van](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@war\_van](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/war_van)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/52 "2011-04-10T06:46:09Z")
> [@Darth\_Ayebaw](#): > > I’m white and have been asked the exact same questions from my dentist. Seems like small talk. I don’t see the big deal. What threw me off was that I was asked what I do for a living as I was walking out of the door, not during the consultation. Didn’t feel like JUST small talk when presented that way. ---
**Author:** ![war\_van](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@war\_van](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/war_van)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/53 "2011-04-10T06:51:05Z")
Whether or not it was racism we can debate about all day. My personal experiences, biases etc. are what I don’t want to pass on to my son. That’s why I played it down to non-issue status in front of him at the doc’s office. ---
**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/54 "2011-04-10T16:41:56Z")
> [@war\_van](#): > > I’m a mid 30’s black male with a 13yr old son. Raised in NYC and am a blue collar worker who values a dollar and a good education. \*\*I live in the Pacific Northwest where the racial divide is obvious. \*\*The public school system just implemented their re-districting (re-segregation) plan to save money on transportation. Oh really? :dubious: I take exception to your claim that the racial divide in the Pacific Northwest is “obvious”. ---
**Author:** ![Zago](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecccb3/32.png) [@Zago](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zago)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/55 "2011-04-10T23:19:25Z")
I too am curious about this obvious racial divide in the Pacific Northwest. I was born and raised there (I’m in my fifties) and it’s true that we didn’t have a lot of black people living there. Even so, one of my closest friends from grades 1-12 was black. I can understand your concern about your dentist - sometimes it’s not just the words (in this case, the questions) but the overall vibe. I assume you’ve had to deal with racism all your life so you must have picked up on something. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/56 "2011-04-10T23:28:15Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > Doesn’t sound like racism to me, maybe a bit of classism based on how you’re dressed and paying with cash, may have just seemed a little weird since that’s probably not something one would see coming out of an upper middle class neighborhood. > [@jjimm](#): > > What have you got against Scottish devil-worshippers?! > > To the OP I vote classism, if that, but probably just “how much can I wring out of this guy?” I go for classism too, with maybe a tad of racism zest for flavour. ---
**Author:** ![SSgtBaloo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@SSgtBaloo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSgtBaloo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/57 "2011-04-10T23:46:31Z")
> [@EvilTOJ](#): > > Oh really? :dubious: I take exception to your claim that the racial divide in the Pacific Northwest is “obvious”. How obvious it appears may depend upon which side of the divide you stand. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/58 "2011-04-11T01:47:58Z")
This does not even quality as classism. You were giving mixed financial signals - baseball cap and private school - and you gave an ambiguous answer about your job. I think this is an example of anti-racism. My dentist would have asked outright if I could afford the work. ---
**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/59 "2011-04-11T03:41:42Z")
The only obvious racism area I can think of is northern Idaho/Eastern Washington near the Coeur d’alene and Spokane area. The KKK and skinheads had bought land up there but I don’t know if it’s a problem still or not. Otherwise I don’t know what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662/60 "2011-04-11T08:04:33Z")
> [@war\_van](#): > > Sorry for the confusion, I paid via check. I meant cash in as not credit or health insurance. How common is dental insurance though? I always assumed it was relatively rare and therefore, paying by check would be seen as more impressive. Sort of an “I’ve got enough money that I don’t need a credit card to cover this expense” thing. If there was any ulterior motive behind the dentist’s small talk (and asking kids where they go to school is so common that I get the question even now well into my 20s) it was in trying to determine if you just merely well off or if you were “rich.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/subtle-racism-more-dangerous-when-we-downplay-it-or-bring-it-to-the-forefront/577662.md?page=4)