# Success in the arts without a pretty package. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 16, 2009, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280 "2009-04-16T12:53:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/1 "2009-04-16T12:53:59Z")
There’s been a lot of discussion about Susan Boyle on UKs got talent and how the music business shuns the unattractive. I wondered if we could find examples of people in the music business and other branches of the arts whose talent rose to the top even though they didn’t fit the traditional mold of being physically attractive as well as talented. Older stars who got established when they were young don’t count unless they were unattractive when they got their start. I thought of Blossom star [Mayim Bialik](http://thebuzz.sheknows.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/mayim-bialik-2008.jpg). I always thought her talent and energy made her non traditional looks secondary. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/2 "2009-04-16T12:59:15Z")
I’ll be the first to post to my own thread. Fellow Mainer [Patty Griffin](http://themostbeautifulthing.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/patty_griffin.jpg) achieved success on the raw emotion and energy of her singing and songwriting IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/3 "2009-04-16T13:12:13Z")
Janis Joplin, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/4 "2009-04-16T13:33:13Z")
The first name that comes to my mind is [Barbara Streisand.](http://astrologyofatrainwreck.astrologydetective.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/519px-barbra_streisand_1962.jpg) I’d say it’s considerably easier for a singer to succeed in spite of of being unattractive than for an actor. How about [Robert Duvall](http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/trutv.com/graphics/photos/gangsters_outlaws/mob_bosses/the_godfather/Tom-Hagen-Robert-Duvall150.jpg) ? ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/5 "2009-04-16T13:45:24Z")
Stevie Ray Vaughn. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/6 "2009-04-16T13:48:39Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > The first name that comes to my mind is [Barbara Streisand.](http://astrologyofatrainwreck.astrologydetective.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/519px-barbra_streisand_1962.jpg) > > I’d say it’s considerably easier for a singer to succeed in spite of of being unattractive than for an actor. How about [Robert Duvall](http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/trutv.com/graphics/photos/gangsters_outlaws/mob_bosses/the_godfather/Tom-Hagen-Robert-Duvall150.jpg) ? I wouldn’t agree with that. It depends on the field. In the Pop/Rock field looks really matter or in country trying to court new young fans. Broadway style musicals or Opera, not quite so much. I think people can become successful as actors without being the gorgeous leading man or lady. There are some incredible character actors who gain great respect from fans and peers. Is Ben Kingsley a great looking guy? I’d say [Bette Midler](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Bette_Midler_(1990).jpg) qualifies Her talent and personna are incredible. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/7 "2009-04-16T15:55:26Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > How about [Robert Duvall](http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/trutv.com/graphics/photos/gangsters_outlaws/mob_bosses/the_godfather/Tom-Hagen-Robert-Duvall150.jpg) ? He popped into my head too, because he’s often mentioned when this topic comes up. But he’s actually a perfectly handsome guy. I don’t get it. He’s not Brando or Newman, but who is? I wouldn’t mind having his looks. [![](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8wXEeLYGLyA/R8ZAJ1EwB9I/AAAAAAAAAe0/jG7i0UIiM9o/S1600-R/robert_duvall_ojciec.jpg) ](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8wXEeLYGLyA/R8ZAJ1EwB9I/AAAAAAAAAe0/jG7i0UIiM9o/S1600-R/robert_duvall_ojciec.jpg) [http://www.carchasemovies.com/movies/film/images/bullitt/robert-duvall.JPG](http://www.carchasemovies.com/movies/film/images/bullitt/robert-duvall.JPG) ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/8 "2009-04-16T16:08:45Z")
I do think men get more success without being handsome. The 1960’s were easier for bad looking people. Almost anyone can be prettied up to look half-way decent. A professional stylist and makeup artist will turn Susan Boyle nice looking. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/9 "2009-04-16T16:11:34Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I wondered if we could find examples of people in the music business and other branches of the arts whose talent rose to the top even though they didn’t fit the traditional mold of being physically attractive as well as talented. You can be find success as an actor if you have a face that’s not attractive but still interesting. I remember a New York Times article about this phenomenon that mentioned Steve Buscemi and Vincent Schiavelli as two actors who benefitted from that idea. [Here is the article.](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/01/weekinreview/01edid.html?scp=6&sq=schiavelli&st=cse) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/10 "2009-04-16T16:14:50Z")
There are plenty of performers who don’t have looks - but all of the successful ones have something else, like charisma, or personal magnetism, or style, or showmanship. All great actors, singers and musicians are people audiences want to look at, even if they aren’t conventionally attractive. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/11 "2009-04-16T16:15:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > There are plenty of performers who don’t have looks - but all of the successful ones have something else, like charisma, or personal magnetism, or style, or showmanship. All great actors, singers and musicians are people audiences want to look at, even if they aren’t conventionally attractive. Good point. How many standup comedians were really handsome or pretty? Rodney Dangerfield sure wasn’t, and if he had been, he would’ve needed a completely different act. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/12 "2009-04-16T16:25:47Z")
I just looked up Susan Boyle on youtube. The clip is amazing, touching. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lp0IWv8QZY) ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/13 "2009-04-16T16:30:02Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > He popped into my head too, because he’s often mentioned when this topic comes up. But he’s actually a perfectly handsome guy. I don’t get it. He’s not Brando or Newman, but who is? I wouldn’t mind having his looks. > > [http://4.bp.blogspot.com/\_8wXEeLYGLyA/R8ZAJ1EwB9I/AAAAAAAAAe0/jG7i0UIiM9o/S1600-R/robert\_duvall\_ojciec.jpg](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8wXEeLYGLyA/R8ZAJ1EwB9I/AAAAAAAAAe0/jG7i0UIiM9o/S1600-R/robert_duvall_ojciec.jpg) > [http://www.carchasemovies.com/movies/film/images/bullitt/robert-duvall.JPG](http://www.carchasemovies.com/movies/film/images/bullitt/robert-duvall.JPG) I don’t get it, either. I think he’s pretty handsome, myself. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/14 "2009-04-16T16:41:49Z")
In theatre it’s called “stage presence” and it will get you further than good looks ever will. Ever watch a group of people on stage and release one person who is doing what everyone is doing catches your eye? That’s stage presence. I saw Carosel in 1994 and noticed a young singer in the chorus. I was so struck by her I got her autograph. Her name was [Audra McDonald](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audra_McDonald). John Cleese, who is at best an average looking bloke, has more stage presence than anyone I’ve ever seen. Tim Curry is another good example, though I find him cute. ---
**Author:** ![emmaliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emmaliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emmaliminal)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/15 "2009-04-16T16:51:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Good point. How many standup comedians were really handsome or pretty? Rodney Dangerfield sure wasn’t, and if he had been, he would’ve needed a completely different act. I’d submit that it’s easier to be non-model-looking for comic actors in general; like [Carol Burnett](http://www.celebritiesfans.com/Pic/carolburnett.jpg) (before she (as she says IIRC) bought herself a chin, etc.). Funny-looking is funny. ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/16 "2009-04-16T16:53:20Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > There’s been a lot of discussion about Susan Boyle on UKs got talent and **how the music business shuns the unattractive**. (bolding mine) Rubbish. Amy Winehouse. Meatloaf. Mick Jagger. Mama Cass. Cyndi Lauper. That guy from the Proclaimers. Phil Collins. I could go on all day. The music business has always been a haven for the unattractive. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/17 "2009-04-16T16:56:29Z")
I always thought the UK was much better than the US when it came to rewarding talent more than appearance. UK movies seem to be much more likely to star someone who just looks _average_, you know? I was thinking this just the other day when I watched the wonderful UK film [Happy-Go-Lucky](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1045670/). The star, [Sally Hawkins](http://movies.about.com/od/cassandrasdream/ig/Cassandra-s-Dream-Premiere/cassandrasdreamprem4.htm) (with whom I’ve officially fallen in love), isn’t ugly by any means, but her appearance can fairly be described as unconventional, with her long nose and slight overbite. Look at nine out ten US television shows. The stars are almost always movie-star attractive unless the character is a nerd, bad guy, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Woodhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@Miss\_Woodhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Woodhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/18 "2009-04-16T16:57:08Z")
I have to agree that it’s easier for a man who’s not beautiful than it is for a woman. Even the overweight actresses and singers still have pretty faces. If their faces aren’t all that, they have a good body. Steven Tyler (oh that mouth! ugh!) Elton John, Drew Carry, and lots more. In acting character actors can be plain looking and make it big but character actresses still have to be pretty for the most part to have their names known. The pool of women that are both famous and average looking is much much smaller than the pool of men who are famous and average. I know several people who sing as well as the woman in that video. It’s not that surprising to me, actually, to hear how well she sings. I think what people forget is that it takes more than a good voice to be famous. For Ms. Boyle it took timing and guts. I wish her the best of luck. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/19 "2009-04-16T17:00:55Z")
I think Ms. Boyle could have been another Bernadette Peters. Not really good looking, but little ladies with big voices (as in Streisand, Elaine Paige and a whole lot of others) are a famous subcatagory of theatre. ---
**Author:** ![Roccoooo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d26b3c/32.png) [@Roccoooo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roccoooo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/20 "2009-04-16T17:25:37Z")
I think there are plenty of musicians who have made it beyond their looks. At the same time I would say that when we look at famous and talented people we can easily over look their shortcomings. Below is a short list of artists who are examples of this. Eminem Ray Lamontagne She Wants Revenge Elton John Michael Jackson Will Farrell (and his whole crew) Ha ha seems I have only listed men. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280.md?page=2)