# Success in the arts without a pretty package. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 16, 2009, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280 "2009-04-16T12:53:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/21 "2009-04-16T17:42:11Z")
My boyfriend just bugged me into watching the first episode of _Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles_, and it was just _gross_ how they replaced Linda Hamilton, who is not IMHO anybody’s idea of beautiful, with that pretty girl. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/22 "2009-04-16T17:46:05Z")
The best example of an unattractive woman who became a major movie star (and top box office attraction) is [Marie Dressler](http://www.theglitteringeye.com/images/Dressler,.jpg). The fact that this was over 80 years ago says something about what’s expected today. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/23 "2009-04-16T18:23:08Z")
> [@Roccoooo](#): > > Eminem > Michael Jackson Surely [Michael Jackson](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_X7EK2qUtuQg/RuqR3MvXRtI/AAAAAAAAAII/rSeON8n4qws/s320/MichaelJackson-OffTheWall.jpg) doesn’t count, having been extremely attractive before he mutilated is face. Also going to disagree on Eminem. He’s not George Clooney, but he’s not _ugly_, and his body was [sick](http://www.hiphop2009.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/eminem-018-01-238272.jpeg) back in the day. [Jason Mraz](http://www.ecorazzi.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/mraz.jpg), however, has an uncanny ability to look like the guy on the [Hills Have Eyes](http://www.soundonsight.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/hillshaveeyes19771.jpg) poster. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/24 "2009-04-16T18:53:31Z")
Sarah Jessica Parker is often joked about due to her looks. She actually looks better now then she did when she was starting out, though. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/25 "2009-04-16T19:40:23Z")
The standard of being attractive is waaaaaaaaaaaaay more wide-ranging for men than it is for women. Women tend to be more attracted to a guy’s personality or charisma and men tend to be more attracted to a woman’s looks, as a general rule. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/26 "2009-04-16T21:14:07Z")
> [@anson2995](#): > > (bolding mine) > > Rubbish. > > Amy Winehouse. Meatloaf. Mick Jagger. Mama Cass. Cyndi Lauper. That guy from the Proclaimers. Phil Collins. I could go on all day. > > The music business has always been a haven for the unattractive. INterestinmg list. I know in many cases talent and/ or stage personna can be more important but certainly for lots of single pop/rock and country single preformers esoecially since TV and video became so much a part of it , lloks are important. Micj Jagger, part of a legendary group that became popular decades ago. Mama Cass, also part of a group. Cyndi Lauper was not unattractive when she first became popular. Phil Collins also got his start in a group years ago. You may have a point but I think your list is rubbish. ---
**Author:** ![badbadrubberpiggy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/57b2e6/32.png) [@badbadrubberpiggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badbadrubberpiggy)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/27 "2009-04-16T21:25:23Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Sarah Jessica Parker is often joked about due to her looks. She actually looks better now then she did when she was starting out, though. I can never decide with her. Half the time she looks lovely, the other half she looks awful, no in-between. And it’s not make-up vs. no make-up, the times I think she’s hideous she’s just as done up as she always is. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/28 "2009-04-16T21:32:35Z")
> [@anson2995](#): > > (bolding mine) > > Rubbish. > > Amy Winehouse. Meatloaf. Mick Jagger. Mama Cass. Cyndi Lauper. That guy from the Proclaimers. Phil Collins. I could go on all day. > > The music business has always been a haven for the unattractive. I wouldn’t call Amy Winehouse or Cyndi Lauper unattractive by any stretch. Amy’s certainly gotten pretty ragged looking with the drugs and all, but she’s not a bad looking gal, if she would just lay off the drugs and eat something once in awhile. Cyndi Lauper’s got a very nice face and good body. They’re both well above average, lookwise, in my book. ---
**Author:** ![voguevixen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5ac83/32.png) [@voguevixen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voguevixen)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/29 "2009-04-16T22:23:57Z")
I have said it before and I’ll say it again: Different strokes for different folks. For every person who thought Mama Cass was a fat slob there was probably someone who thought she was a voluptuous goddess with a voice like an angel. I think there are diverse, untapped markets out there, and this thread is evidence of it already in only its first page! ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/30 "2009-04-16T22:35:44Z")
Steve Buscemi? ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/31 "2009-04-16T22:41:41Z")
I’ve got a pretty package. Check out my pretty package. There’s a woman holding it here. [http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/ginasanders/ginasanders0903/ginasanders090300446/4476605.jpg](http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/ginasanders/ginasanders0903/ginasanders090300446/4476605.jpg) 😉 **Zsofia** said: > [@](#): > > My boyfriend just bugged me into watching the first episode of _Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles_, and it was just gross how they replaced Linda Hamilton, who is not IMHO anybody’s idea of beautiful, with that pretty girl. 1. Linda Hamilton does not look like she did for T2, and would be too old for the role now even if she did. 2. I think Linda Hamilton is pretty hot, especially in T2. 3. In fact, she was on a TV show called “Beauty and the Beast” - as Beauty. So apparently a lot of people thought that, too. 4. Lena Headey is actually a good fit for the role. She is not as buff as Linda Hamilton was in T2, but is slim and athletic and physically fit. She also plays the role well. 5. And yes, she is pretty, though to my eye there is something about her that is edgy or non-conventional. I don’t know, she doesn’t look like every other actress out there. YMMV. As for the OP, I was thinking Roy Orbison and Bob Dylan, but google shows me neither were particularly ugly when they began their careers. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/32 "2009-04-16T23:34:26Z")
I think [Marty Feldman](http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3708590080/nm0001204) takes the cake. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/33 "2009-04-16T23:48:36Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > 1. Linda Hamilton does not look like she did for T2, and would be too old for the role now even if she did. > > 2. I think Linda Hamilton is pretty hot, especially in T2. Same here. I was going to say, “Linda Hamilton was never anyone’s idea of hot? Seriously?” I’ve only seen T1, but I thought she looked great. And I googled her, and…yeah. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/34 "2009-04-17T03:50:59Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I think [Marty Feldman](http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3708590080/nm0001204) takes the cake. Well yah! Comics don’t really qualify. Funny looking is almost a plus for them. Still even Marty Doesn’t win over [this guy](http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/2008/11/11/JR_Martinez_soap_star.html). ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/35 "2009-04-17T07:07:17Z")
Macy Gray isn’t a hottie. But of course it was because the (probably good looking) person who was supposed to sing her music didn’t show up that they had Macy sing it. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/36 "2009-04-17T07:53:19Z")
[Margaret Hamilton](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Margaret_Hamilton_in_Nothing_Sacred_2.jpg) is basically remembered for [one role](http://filmfanatic.org/reviews/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/Witch4.JPG), but she has more than 100 film and TV credits on [IMDb](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002121/), which doesn’t include her work in commercials or on stage. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/37 "2009-04-17T08:16:13Z")
There are way too many people who qualify for the OP to even begin listing them all. How about “pretty much every character actor?” Ned Beatty isn’t anyone’s idea of handsome but I’m sure he laughed all the way to the bank even after squealing like a pig in Deliverance. If “success in the arts” simply means “making a lot of money” then we’re talking about hundreds of people who fall into the OP’s category. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/38 "2009-04-17T08:51:19Z")
The original thread on Susan Boyle got me thinking, along the lines of the OP, about successful signers who are unattractive but whose looks are just not relevant. The two performers that first popped up in my mind were: **Cesaria Evora** is notable because she got her big break at the age of 47, the same as Ms. Boyle, and endured all sorts of hardships. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/78li5r-aO7E/hqdefault.jpg "Cesaria Evora - Miss Perfumado") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78li5r-aO7E) [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OabD8gr3Hjs) **Mercedes Sosa** got started very young but by the time she released her first record she was already a bit overweight. Of course, it doesn’t matter a bit when you hear her sing. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/gx_kS_6zaVw/hqdefault.jpg "Mercedes Sosa - Cosquin 2006 - Volver a los 17") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx_kS_6zaVw) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/kE_3Q95gEOM/hqdefault.jpg "15 En el Rosedal - Mercedes Sosa - Volver a los 17") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE_3Q95gEOM) ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/39 "2009-04-17T15:33:36Z")
The premise behind the thread is a bit weak, because Susan Boyle’s challenges go way beyond being a bit frumpy (and I, too, think that she just needs a little makeover). She has some cognitive disabilities, was teased and harassed as a kid to the point of lacking any confidence in her own abilities or attractiveness, grew up poor, and spent much of her adult life tending to a sick mother in a tiny town. Given a different set of circumstances, the exact same woman could have thrived. Her looks only matter to the extent that they reflect what her life is like, i.e., she’s not the sort to indulge in stylists or nice clothes. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280/40 "2009-04-17T15:52:42Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I wouldn’t call Amy Winehouse or Cyndi Lauper unattractive by any stretch. Amy’s certainly gotten pretty ragged looking with the drugs and all, but she’s not a bad looking gal, if she would just lay off the drugs and eat something once in awhile. Also worth noting that it’s not as if Amy Winehouse [started off](http://evilbeetgossip.film.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/amy_nice.jpg) as an underweight, wild-eyed drug addict. As **Argent Towers** points out, it’s possible to succeed in the arts without being ‘conventionally attractive,’ you just might not ever make the marquee. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-in-the-arts-without-a-pretty-package/493280.md?page=3)