# Success of Indian (dot) kids at U.S spelling bee competitions . **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 28, 2009, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915 "2009-05-28T10:58:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Indian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@Indian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indian)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/21 "2009-05-28T16:39:35Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That was me. > > **indian** is actually Indian, for the record. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/22 "2009-05-28T16:45:17Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Yes, and Tim Whatley was actually Jewish\*. And a dentist. 😃 “The word is ‘schtickle’.” “Could you use it in a sentence?” “‘Could I get a schtickle of flouride?’” ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/23 "2009-05-28T16:52:20Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > “‘Could I get a schtickle of flouride?’” “And this offends you as a Jewish person?” “It offends me as a comedian!” ---
**Author:** ![KlondikeGeoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3e96dc/32.png) [@KlondikeGeoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KlondikeGeoff)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/24 "2009-05-28T17:44:01Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The American Indians are usually called Native Americans these days, if only to avoid such confusion (and also because it’s a complete misnomer, of course). Perhaps back East, but in the West, and especially in Arizona, all of them call themselves Indians. I have several Navajo friends, none of whom ever use Native American. Indian tribe, Indian casino, Indian Nation are used all the time. One Navajo friend with whom I correspond via eamil calls himself “An old injun from the rez.” He left the reservation when young, got a good education, works as a computer programmer, yet went back to the rez in mid-life, as he just missed the strong bonds of family and friends there. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/25 "2009-05-28T20:38:56Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > “And this offends you as a Jewish person?” > > “It offends me as a comedian!” Those aren’t buoys! I’ll stop now. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/26 "2009-05-29T02:31:44Z")
**And they’re still doing it!** Kavya Shivashankar just won the Scripps National Spelling Bee. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/27 "2009-05-29T09:12:13Z")
> [@KlondikeGeoff](#): > > Perhaps back East, but in the West, and especially in Arizona, all of them call themselves Indians. I have several Navajo friends, none of whom ever use Native American. Indian tribe, Indian casino, Indian Nation are used all the time. > > One Navajo friend with whom I correspond via eamil calls himself “An old injun from the rez.” He left the reservation when young, got a good education, works as a computer programmer, yet went back to the rez in mid-life, as he just missed the strong bonds of family and friends there. Ignorance fought. I propose that, rather than changing the name for the group, we just retcon the word into an abbreviation of “ **Indi** genous Americ **ans** ”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/28 "2009-05-29T09:31:29Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > “The word is ‘schtickle’.” > > “Could you use it in a sentence?” > > “‘Could I get a schtickle of flouride?’” I love it when they use Yiddish loanwords in the Spelling Bee. In this year’s championship round one of the words was [kichel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kichel). “Can you use it in a sentence?” “The thought of somebody kvetching about her kichel gave Mary the shpilkes.” ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/29 "2009-05-29T16:12:14Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Ignorance fought. > > I propose that, rather than changing the name for the group, we just retcon the word into an abbreviation of “ **Indi** genous Americ **ans** ”. 😃 That’s a darned good idea. For the record, every academic I know who works in American Indian history uses “Indian”, mostly because the Indians themselves never bought into “Native American”. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/30 "2009-05-29T16:43:23Z")
Being something of a speller myself, in the days where it was something you did in school and that was it, I’ve had an interest in the Scripps competition and of course the documentary _Spellbound_. And my reaction was the same - what’s the point of this? Spelling well is a great parlor trick, but it has absolutely no application in the real world. I imagine an admissions officer might think of it as a nice “plus,” but no-one’s getting into Harvard, or earning a scholarship (unless it’s from Scripps) because you were a great speller. You pretty much have to win the damn thing to get any mileage out of it. So why on earth do parents invest time, money, and energy into this? **Manda JO** I think has it sussed, for the most part. When I look at the spellers, there is this overwhelming preponderance of recent immigrants, home-schooled kids - groups that tend not to _know_ what activities are truly beneficial for their kids in the world of competitive academics. And I’m not bagging on Asian parents, but there does seem to be a certain amount of mileage that they earn socially if their kid is the best at something. (A lot of parents play this game too, but I’ve seen it at fairly obnoxious levels, and one of my students, who is an Indian mom, constantly shakes her head at the dick-measuring that some of the parents in her social circle engage in.) Between my wife and I, we have five degrees, three from Ivy League schools… and I couldn’t be less interested in spelling bees and science competitions and the like. Well, science competitions actually have an application. But I’m more concerned that my kid take the most challenging courses across the curriculum, and find an engaging interest or two that he enjoys (and perhaps excels at). The rest will take care of itself. That being said, if my kid wants to be a speller, I’ll do what I can to encourage it, but honestly, the skills it takes to be a top speller might be better applied to an endeavor of worth (studying history, other languages, etc). ---
**Author:** ![just\_a\_guy\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@just\_a\_guy\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/just_a_guy_1)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/31 "2009-05-29T17:08:09Z")
" They are misfits and other, less brilliant students are living lives they should envy. " Should they? Indian Americans have the highest median income among all the ethnic groups (including mainstream “white” Americans). (Source: wikipedia, U.S. Census) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/32 "2009-05-29T17:10:27Z")
> [@just\_a\_guy](#): > > Should they? Indian Americans have the highest median income among all the ethnic groups (including mainstream “white” Americans). (Source: wikipedia, U.S. Census) Yeah, but we are so fucked if socialized medicine catches on here… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![just\_a\_guy\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@just\_a\_guy\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/just_a_guy_1)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/33 "2009-05-29T17:16:37Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > If your ultimate goal is a high-paying job, this is actually a high-risk, low-yield strategy, but I think it comes from the intuitive idea that if their is a game, the point must be to win it. The fact that that is not true takes a generation or so to figure out. Winning (or even being a finalist) a spelling bee competition helps you a lot in getting college-scholarships. How is it a high-risk low-yield strategy ?? I think Indians have figured it out alright. How can you, being a teacher, not understand this? ---
**Author:** ![judikium](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@judikium](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/judikium)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/34 "2009-05-29T18:04:29Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > The successful spelling-bee competitors sadden me. Often missing is work/life balance. The kids are starved of daylight and other endeavors that are rewarding, just to get to the ‘top’ of ‘something’ abstract. I think this is a bit of an exaggeration. Having participated in the national bee myself, I’ve been acquainted with a few champions and plenty of top-ten finalists. For the most part, they are perfectly well-adjusted teenagers, who, for a few years, got good at something and had the dedication to excel. There are the misfits, of course, but even for them, the Bee is giving them a chance to excel and be recognized for talent that might otherwise go unnoticed. Spelling bees do not cause kids to hole themselves up for days on end learning their Latin declensions (or whatever). They study with their parents, with their friends online. They make inside jokes about the words they learn. They’re brilliant, but still utterly normal kids. And if you think these kids are starved of “other endeavors” - definitely not true. They compete in the Geography Bee, win music competitions, write novels, play sports, do traditional Indian dance (like the winner this year). It’s easy to label the kids as freaks, but they are anything but. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/35 "2009-05-29T18:11:02Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > In my experience with other education systems (the Chinese education system and the French system as implemented in west Africa) there is a much bigger emphasis on rote memorization. In other systems the teacher acts as the ultimate authority, and students are expected to memorize information. Learning is quite systematic. Bingo - American education has been moving away from rote memorization since the '70s at least, while much of the rest of the world has favored rote memorization. Indians just happen to be a fairly common minority with a strong work ethic and commitment to education. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/36 "2009-05-29T18:37:00Z")
> [@just\_a\_guy](#): > > Winning (or even being a finalist) a spelling bee competition helps you a lot in getting college-scholarships. How is it a high-risk low-yield strategy ?? I think Indians have figured it out alright. How can you, being a teacher, not understand this? I think **Manda JO** understands it correctly and I agree with her. The eastern cultures (Indian, Asian, ) have a tendency to over-emphasize academic achievement at the expense of a well-rounded socialized life. It’s a wonderful mindset for churning out obedient white-collar worker bees but not so good at generating business leaders (CEO or entrepreneur) with aggressive creative talents. This is not a slight against Asian aspirations because many parents do not strive for their kids to become the big CEO. Therefore, their philosophy on education matches the type of adults their children become. The energy devoted to a spelling bee is a low-yield strategy. If the child has natural tendency for memorization and has fun learning words, then of course it makes sense to support his training. But to go beyond that and think that a spelling bee championship as a definitive stepping stone to future success? No, it’s a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/37 "2009-05-29T18:43:10Z")
The spelling bee isn’t only about rote memorization though. A lot of is about understanding the origins of words and applying the relevant rules. And maths is certainly not about rote learning and neither are science competitions. ``` And anyway rote learning is an important part of learning. You need an adequate stock of knowledge thoroughly memorized before you do all the fancy creative thinking. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/38 "2009-05-29T18:48:23Z")
> [@](#): > > The eastern cultures (Indian, Asian, ) have a tendency to over-emphasize academic achievement at the expense of a well-rounded socialized life. ``` Frankly you are over-generalizing here. China and India are economic dynamos which would hardly be possible without innumerable entrepreneurs. In fact they have entrepreneurial traditions going back thousands of years. And in the US Asian immigrants have been very active for example in creating startups in Silicon Valley. ``` ---
**Author:** ![just\_a\_guy\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@just\_a\_guy\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/just_a_guy_1)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/39 "2009-05-29T18:49:41Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > The energy devoted to a spelling bee is a low-yield strategy. If the child has natural tendency for memorization and has fun learning words, then of course it makes sense to support his training. But to go beyond that and think that a spelling bee championship as a definitive stepping stone to future success? No, it’s a waste of time. I agree with you that there is no point on pushing a child who cannot memorize or not motivated to do it. But, if the child has the drive for it, then it is a definitive stepping stone for future success (as I explained before, it helps you getting the college-funds). ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915/40 "2009-05-29T19:01:12Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > The energy devoted to a spelling bee is a low-yield strategy. If the child has natural tendency for memorization and has fun learning words, then of course it makes sense to support his training. But to go beyond that and think that a spelling bee championship as a definitive stepping stone to future success? No, it’s a waste of time. They could do worse. They could spend endless hours and lots of money trying to get good enough at sports to win a college scholarship in football, basketball or ice hockey. Lots of kids in the US do that, and the chance of succeeding with that strategy are even poorer. I think the spelling bee competitors have a better chance of success. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/success-of-indian-dot-kids-at-u-s-spelling-bee-competitions/497915.md?page=3)