# Successful genocides **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 26, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126 "2014-07-26T22:36:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/21 "2014-07-27T04:16:54Z")
It may not have been a total 100% genocide, but have you ever met a Carib indian? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/22 "2014-07-27T04:47:53Z")
Ever heard of the Mazoomboos? That’s why. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/23 "2014-07-27T05:07:17Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > “In a 2010 paper, JM Potter and JP Chuipka argued that evidence at Sacred Ridge Site, near Durango, Colorado, is best interpreted as ethnic cleansing.” (Perimortem mutilation of human remains in an early village in the American Southwest: A case for ethnic violence. J. Anthropol. Archaeol. (2010), doi:10.1016/j.jaa.2010.08.001) Thank you. (Also, darn. Why does this kind of crap have to be so damn universal. “Human nature” is so often some of the ugliest stuff ever.) ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/24 "2014-07-27T05:13:31Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Thank you. (Also, darn. Why does this kind of crap have to be so damn universal. “Human nature” is so often some of the ugliest stuff ever.) You hate what you know , THAT is universal. ---
**Author:** ![here\_and\_there](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f07891/32.png) [@here\_and\_there](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/here_and_there)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/25 "2014-07-27T11:24:39Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Thank you. (Also, darn. Why does this kind of crap have to be so damn universal. “Human nature” is so often some of the ugliest stuff ever.) I assume, when you say “universal” you mean that it has happened everywhere in the world. But as of how often it happens, genocides are the exception. In most cultures, for example, killing women and children is considered inhumane, or at least extreme. Until recently, in most wars, the majority of deaths where soldiers. It was after the industrialization of war that civilians started being killed in masses. Nowadays, in wars, the majority of deaths are civilians. It seems to me that genocide is, actually, against human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/26 "2014-07-27T12:32:11Z")
> [@here\_and\_there](#): > > It seems to me that genocide is, actually, against human nature. Tell that to the buffalo. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/27 "2014-07-27T12:35:59Z")
> [@here\_and\_there](#): > > I assume, when you say “universal” you mean that it has happened everywhere in the world. > But as of how often it happens, genocides are the exception. > > In most cultures, for example, killing women and children is considered inhumane, or at least extreme. > Until recently, in most wars, the majority of deaths where soldiers. > It was after the industrialization of war that civilians started being killed in masses. > Nowadays, in wars, the majority of deaths are civilians. > > It seems to me that genocide is, actually, against human nature. Except that’s not true, as this [list](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll)of wars by death toll shows. The Mongols, for instance, killed 30 million people across Eurasia - the vast majority of them civilians. I wouldn’t call the Horde industrialized (although they were technologically advanced for their time) ---
**Author:** ![Shooby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f475e1/32.png) [@Shooby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shooby)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/28 "2014-07-27T12:45:12Z")
> [@here\_and\_there](#): > > In most cultures, for example, killing women and children is considered inhumane, or at least extreme. > Until recently, in most wars, the majority of deaths where soldiers. > It was after the industrialization of war that civilians started being killed in masses. > Nowadays, in wars, the majority of deaths are civilians. The Mongols, the most successful conquerors in world history, didn’t play by those rules, which was probably one of the (many) reasons they were so damned good at their warring ways. They got so efficient at genociding towns that it was almost factory-like. They’d bring everyone outside, give each of their soldiers a quota (~# citizens to kill / # of soldiers they had), and let them loose with the skullcleavings and be done before supper. Anyone who didn’t meet the quota was punished (and sometimes executed). Of course they never really genocided completely, because they accepted surrenders (usually), and they conscripted useful people and enslaved women as it suited them. But sometimes they did go for every man, woman, and child (and dog, and cat, etc.) when they were really pissed off. Their treatment of the middle east was probably the harshest, and while no culture was really genocided, they did set the arab world back from being the pinnacle of human civilization to a state that some argue they still hadn’t fully recovered from many centuries later. _edited: Alessan!_ ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/29 "2014-07-27T20:47:06Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > There are lots of cults and heresies that were wiped out through history, especially dualist/gnostic faiths. Catharism and Manichaeism come to mind. The Manichaeans did not disappear due to a “successful genocide.” I do not believe that the Zurvanists did, either - I believe it was more of a gradual decline whilst getting supplanted by Islam. Any other examples of “dualist/gnostic faiths” getting physically wiped out, apart from Mazdakism and Catharism? > [@Ignotus](#): > > The Guanches of Canary Islands? There were survivors and intermarriage and the like, but yeah, as a people they were basically wiped out, and even today we know next to nothing about their language, culture, origin, religion and so on. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/30 "2014-07-27T21:32:52Z")
> [@EdwinAmi](#): > > Whatever happened in Mohenjo-daro, where there are mass graves of people huddles together with weapon wounds Cite? I’ve never heard of such a thing anywhere in the Indus civilization. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/31 "2014-07-27T21:39:23Z")
> [@here\_and\_there](#): > > In most cultures, for example, killing women and children is considered inhumane, or at least extreme. Unless they do it [By The Book](http://biblehub.com/numbers/31-17.htm), as it were. I think it counts as genocide if you then [distribute and continually rape](http://biblehub.com/numbers/31-18.htm) the only survivors to fill them with you Chosen babies, right? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/32 "2014-07-27T22:11:09Z")
> [@Shooby](#): > > The Mongols, the most successful conquerors in world history, didn’t play by those rules, which was probably one of the (many) reasons they were so damned good at their warring ways. > > They got so efficient at genociding towns that it was almost factory-like. They’d bring everyone outside, give each of their soldiers a quota (~# citizens to kill / # of soldiers they had), and let them loose with the skullcleavings and be done before supper. Anyone who didn’t meet the quota was punished (and sometimes executed). > > Of course they never really genocided completely, because they accepted surrenders (usually), and they conscripted useful people and enslaved women as it suited them. But sometimes they did go for every man, woman, and child (and dog, and cat, etc.) when they were really pissed off. Their treatment of the middle east was probably the harshest, and while no culture was really genocided, they did set the arab world back from being the pinnacle of human civilization to a state that some argue they still hadn’t fully recovered from many centuries later. [Indeed.](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenghisKhan) > [@](#): > > [Genghis Khan is] mentioned far more in Chinese and especially central-Asian stories and culture than in western Europe, the latter having had very little if anything to do with him, he is either shown as a tolerant and just ruler who helped bring order in a chaotic period, or as a ruthless barbarian who slaughtered swathes of innocents for personal gain. The truth is a mixture of the two. He was a revolutionary conqueror in Asia for the time in that he allowed almost total freedom of religion, did not impose on the cultures of the defeated, and established a vast and effective trade and postal network that were of great benefits to most parts of Asia, particularly given the ongoing disintegration and decline of The Empire of the Song. On the other hand, he was absolutely ruthless to anyone who dared to resist his Mongol hordes. He was not above biological warfare or using living prisoners as human shields. Plus, they would often massacre people who resisted. The Iranian plateau lost three-quarters of its population and didn’t recover until the mid-20th century. Entire cities were leveled to the ground as examples; to this day, some areas in Central Asia are disproportionately populated compared to their surroundings thanks to these _13th century_ tactics. > > In fact, Genghis Khan’s conquests are one of the (possibly the) only human action to have caused an _evolutionary shift,_ as wild species populations in Central Asia exploded because all the humans who would otherwise till the arable lands and keep them at bay were dead or refugees. To put this in perspective, after his death, one of his grandsons led The Horde into Baghdad. At the time, Baghdad was a jewel of world civilization since it had been the Indo-European center of commerce and learning for centuries (for example: Take the USA’s Library of Congress, cross it with every prestigious educational institution in all of Europe and The Americas, steal every major artwork and architectural achievement ever constructed on those continents and dump in in ONE SPOT, then fill it with the population and commercial power of France-Germany and THEN you’re getting somewhere). To get a sense of the destruction wrought, read that description again and then think of Baghdad and the surrounding region today. ‘Fertile Crescent’ no longer, indeed. It’s worth noting that Helagu Khan (the bloke who did all that) later got his ass kicked from the Muslim Khans of the Mongol Hordes, particularly Berke Khan. This civil war eventually ended with Nogai Khan, a Muslim, ending as the most powerful figure and kingmaker amongst the Mongolian tribes. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/33 "2014-07-27T22:25:34Z")
> [@](#): > > The Mongols, the most successful conquerors in world history, didn’t play by those rules, which was probably one of the (many) reasons they were so damned good at their warring ways. “The Mongols are always the exception.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/34 "2014-07-27T22:36:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Indeed.](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenghisKhan) _TV Tropes_ is your cite? That is not to say there isn’t some truth there, but that’s your best cite??? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/35 "2014-07-27T22:37:27Z")
TV Tropes is always the best cite. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/36 "2014-07-27T22:53:09Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > TV Tropes is always the best cite. 🙂 The idea that Baghdad was an “Indo-European” city made me go 😕 ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/37 "2014-07-27T23:05:32Z")
Among Native Indian tribes of Eastern Canada - the Dorsets (who repelled the Vikings from Newfoundland!) and the Beothuks. Both eventually succumbed to sustained pressure from other native tribes. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/38 "2014-07-27T23:05:45Z")
> [@grude](#): > > It may not have been a total 100% genocide, but have you ever met a Carib indian? Yup! On the Caribbean island of Dominica, there are still Carib Indians. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/39 "2014-07-27T23:22:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > _TV Tropes_ is your cite? That is not to say there isn’t some truth there, but that’s your best cite??? Don’t sell it short; every Doper should read the page on [Political Ideologies](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/PoliticalIdeologies) – best general summary I’ve ever read. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126/40 "2014-07-28T02:48:35Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > Yup! On the Caribbean island of Dominica, there are still Carib Indians. They’re probably mixed, just like they are in Trinidad, and **grude** should know that. In the Lesser Antilles, pure Caribs may not remain, but mixed Caribs, with their customs and/or identity, may still remain. There are no Taíno left, though. Sure, the majority of people living in Puerto Rico (and likely Dominican Republic and Haiti, perhaps Cuba) have Taíno ancestors, but none are left today that claim it as an identity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/successful-genocides/694126.md?page=3)