# Such a BEAUTIFUL shade of grey! (or, favorite ambiguous characters) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 22, 2006, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718 "2006-06-22T14:48:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/41 "2006-06-22T22:44:13Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] A world which shouldn’t be saved, with only 2 kinds of people on it; victims and monsters. He’s a pitch black villain, and Gor really ought to get a visit from the Death Star. And that’s being kind. [/QUOTE] No. Galactus. At least _somebody_ should benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/42 "2006-06-22T22:49:01Z")
[QUOTE=Troy McClure SF] And in the same vein, Mal is obviously a risk-taker, but with three betrayals of his crew in a fourteen episode series (Out of Gas, Ariel, and the pilot)? Ditch him! [/QUOTE] Maybe I’m misreading your comment, but I don’t remember Mal EVER betraying his crew, nor would he. ---
**Author:** ![Lazlo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lazlo/32/9678_2.png) [@Lazlo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lazlo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/43 "2006-06-22T23:02:03Z")
[QUOTE=Big Bad Voodoo Lou] Maybe I’m misreading your comment, but I don’t remember Mal EVER betraying his crew, nor would he. [/QUOTE] He was talking about Jayne. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/44 "2006-06-22T23:58:15Z")
Londo Molari. An innately honorable man who none the less has a totally Machiavellian world view. A good man who does evil things. Who simultaneously achieves total power as an absolute slave. Whose friends always say “Poor Londo!” whenever they think of him after he meets his fate. Scorpius. Fanatically willing to do anything to defeat an enemy compared to whom he is an angel of light. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/45 "2006-06-23T02:39:37Z")
[QUOTE=Troy McClure SF] **Jayne Cobb** on _Firefly_. I’ve always found it odd that fans have so much love for the guy who, while not as merciless as Saffron, and not as sadistic as Niska, handed over the crew to the Alliance, purely for the money. Sure, he got busted, and sure Mal talked to him using real strong words, but knowing that Jayne would turn any offering of a few bucks into “a pretty interesting day” makes the whole “I was aiming for his head” and the goofy hat a little less cute. IMHO. And in the same vein, Mal is obviously a risk-taker, but with three betrayals of his crew in a fourteen episode series (Out of Gas, Ariel, and the pilot)? Ditch him! [/QUOTE] See, I was thinking MAL was a pretty grey character. Sure, he’s looking out for his flock, but he’s got no compunctions about kicking a threat into an intake, or spacing a member of his crew for the right reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/46 "2006-06-23T02:56:51Z")
I came in here to talk about _Unforgiven_ but was beaten to the punch (so to speak). What an amazing film, with truly amazing actors in the three main roles. Each is terribly flawed, but in his heart feels that he is really doing the right thing. And of course, being an alcoholic, I treasure the scene where Munny finally takes that drink, and you _see_ the world darken… “We’ve all got it comin’, kid.” ---
**Author:** ![Elenfair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cc9497/32.png) [@Elenfair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elenfair)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/47 "2006-06-23T03:33:15Z")
[QUOTE=Unintentionally Blank] See, I was thinking MAL was a pretty grey character. Sure, he’s looking out for his flock, but he’s got no compunctions about kicking a threat into an intake, or spacing a member of his crew for the right reasons. [/QUOTE] … what about the Shepherd? Of course, we never really got to find out just what was up with his past. ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/48 "2006-06-23T03:45:45Z")
[QUOTE=Elenfair] … what about the Shepherd? Of course, we never really got to find out just what was up with his past. [/QUOTE] I’m pretty sure he used to be an Operative, just like the guy in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/49 "2006-06-23T03:57:53Z")
[QUOTE=Manny] The Hound in _A Song of Ice and Fire_. He’s harsh and violent when he needs to be and followssome pretty evil orders, but he seems to take no pleasure in violence. [/QUOTE] Manny - I’m not sure how much you’ve read into things, however… The Abbott has a guy with a bad leg at that Breanne passes while visiting the Abbey. Lots of speculation that he’s the Hound. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Achren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/898d66/32.png) [@Achren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achren)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/50 "2006-06-23T03:59:59Z")
[QUOTE=Elenfair] … what about the Shepherd? Of course, we never really got to find out just what was up with his past. [/QUOTE] See, I always figured he’d been a Believer, like the guy chasing River in the movie, which was how he knew so much. What I wonder is - if he was, did he retire (can you?) The Alliance took good care of him, so it’s not like he was on their bad list… When does Jayne betray the crew in Out of Gas? I know he talks back to Mal a lot, but I’m rarely sure how much of that is talk and how much he actually means. (I like to think he enjoys working for Mal, bu doesn’t realize it as he’s Tough Bad Guy #1!TM ) In Ariel he just betrays the Tams. Can’t remember the Pilot well enough to comment. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/51 "2006-06-23T04:04:29Z")
[QUOTE=Lazlo] He was talking about Jayne. [/QUOTE] How’d Jayne betray Mal or the crew in _Out of Gas_? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Achren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/898d66/32.png) [@Achren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achren)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/52 "2006-06-23T04:10:52Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] How’d Jayne betray Mal or the crew in _Out of Gas_? -Joe [/QUOTE] I could swear someone just [asked that](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7513658&postcount=50). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/53 "2006-06-23T04:23:39Z")
As far as I remember, Jayne was holding Mal and Zoe at gunpoint in _Out of Gas_–in one of the flashbacks to Mal’s past. In the present time in-episode he doesn’t betray Mal or **Serenity** ’s crew. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/54 "2006-06-23T04:37:10Z")
[QUOTE=Kythereia] As far as I remember, Jayne was holding Mal and Zoe at gunpoint in _Out of Gas_–in one of the flashbacks to Mal’s past. In the present time in-episode he doesn’t betray Mal or **Serenity** ’s crew. [/QUOTE] Right, but Jayne wasn’t working for Mal…so there’s no ‘betrayal’ in that one. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/55 "2006-06-23T04:39:50Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] Right, but Jayne wasn’t working for Mal…so there’s no ‘betrayal’ in that one. -Joe [/QUOTE] Point. 🙂 I really can’t think of a moment of actual betrayal in that episode at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/56 "2006-06-23T05:32:00Z")
Well, Jayne DID betray the bunch he was with to join the Serenity crew. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/57 "2006-06-23T05:45:47Z")
**Dr. Herbert West,** as depicted in the _Reanimator_ movies. (Not so much as in the written form.) Murderous, thouroughly amoral, and fiendishly manipulative…but not really malicious, or for personal gain. He’s in it for _science._ (Kinda like the old saying…“It’s not arrogance if you have the moves to back it up.”) **Rorschach** —The kind of superhero you’d get if someone murdered the Zodiac killer’s Uncle Ben. **Marv** —From _Sin City_. (ibid) Actually, I’m not sure he counts…he has a heart of gold, compared to the other scallywags in this thread. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/58 "2006-06-23T12:25:26Z")
The **Dune** series is full of folks who are ruthlessly devoted (to the point of willingly sacrificing themselves) to long-term goals which they believe to be for the greater good, but may the puppygod help anyone who gets in their way. Paul, Leto II, the Bene Gesserit, to name a few. And poor Duncan is caught in the middle of it for over 5,000 years. ---
**Author:** ![Labdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Labdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labdad)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/59 "2006-06-23T13:28:36Z")
Tom Ripley, as created by Patricia Highsmith, and especially as portrayed by John Malkovich in [_Ripley’s Game_.](http://imdb.com/title/tt0265651/). So charming, so intelligent, so sophisticated - so deadly! ---
**Author:** ![Bites\_When\_Provoked](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bites_when_provoked/32/18073_2.png) [@Bites\_When\_Provoked](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bites_When_Provoked)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/60 "2006-06-23T13:56:24Z")
Most of the central characters in \*\*Robin Hobb’s _Farseer_ series \*\*are very ‘real’. You can’t hate the ‘bad’ ones, because you understand their perspective - and the ‘good’ ones can be hurtful and stupid just like real people. Not to be confused with the \*Liveship \*series, which wasn’t a patch on it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718.md?page=4)