# Such a BEAUTIFUL shade of grey! (or, favorite ambiguous characters) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 22, 2006, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718 "2006-06-22T14:48:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/81 "2006-06-23T21:50:56Z")
I can’t believe I forgot to mention [Gul Dukat](http://www.startrekkie.com/images/images/DS9dukat.jpg)–at least in the early-to-mid-years of DS9. I didn’t care for it when they had him take up common cause with the Dominion; I liked him much better as a bad guy who thought he was a good guy because that’s what he really wanted to be. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/82 "2006-06-23T22:37:45Z")
I read this thread rather fast, so apologies if this is a duplicate. How about Greg House? Now _there’s_ a character who is a real dick and a good guy all at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/83 "2006-06-23T23:26:52Z")
[QUOTE=Vagus] _waves_… I do! Agreed, fantastic author. I’ll nominate the three main characters from **L.A. Confidential** , especially Edmund Exley (Guy Pearce). [/QUOTE] Squeeee! Have you read his third book, _Iron Council_, yet? He’s a pretty hard-line Marxist, apparently, and it shows, as IC is by far his most overtly political work yet. However, it’s still a cracking read; goes into quite a lot of detail on the rest of Bas-Lag, including bits affected by Torque. I loved it, personally- but all the characters were very, very conflicted. Not one of them could really be called an out-and-out hero. (Especially Toro and Ori). ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/84 "2006-06-23T23:41:05Z")
Speaking of _Firefly_, what about The Operative? Very interesting shades of grey, in that he’s doing evil deeds, but he _knows_ that what he’s doing is evil. But he’s convinced that it’s the only way to bring about “better worlds” in the future. He’s accepted that he’ll commit sadistic and horrifying acts, but he firmly believes it’s the right thing to do. He he knows that even if his better world actually arrives he won’t be welcome there, due to what he did to bring that about. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2006, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/85 "2006-06-24T08:05:21Z")
I really don’t have much prose to contribute or a well remembered backstory, but I always liked DC Comic’s _Warlord_ for moral ambiguity. He was a hero- A military man out of place, time, and dimension. Doing his best in a place of Barbarism and Primitives, a kind of Tooth and Claw Survival… ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2006, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/86 "2006-06-24T12:43:17Z")
[QUOTE=teela brown] How about Greg House? Now _there’s_ a character who is a real dick and a good guy all at the same time. [/QUOTE] I came back to mention Dr. House. He’s an argumentative, arrogant bastard, but a brillant medical diagnostian and if anyone threatened anyone he cared about, I think his cane would be put “where the sun don’t shine.” ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2006, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/87 "2006-06-24T12:45:31Z")
[QUOTE=Waenara] Speaking of _Firefly_, what about The Operative? Very interesting shades of grey, in that he’s doing evil deeds, but he _knows_ that what he’s doing is evil. But he’s convinced that it’s the only way to bring about “better worlds” in the future. He’s accepted that he’ll commit sadistic and horrifying acts, but he firmly believes it’s the right thing to do. He he knows that even if his better world actually arrives he won’t be welcome there, due to what he did to bring that about. [/QUOTE] That kind of character - the warrior fighting for a world he can have no part of and in which he won’t be needed nor wanted - is a longstanding favourite of mine. Heck, it even helps me stomach the _Street Fighter_ movie. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2006, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/88 "2006-06-24T12:55:32Z")
[QUOTE=Manny] The Hound in _A Song of Ice and Fire_. He’s harsh and violent when he needs to be and followssome pretty evil orders, but he seems to take no pleasure in violence. [/QUOTE] I came into this thread to mention Jaime Lannister. I was a little upset when GRRM added in his perspective in the…second? third?..book. Bad guys shouldn’t get a perspective! Except, now that we’ve had his perspective for a couple books, I…sort of like him. Of course, pretty much everyone in _A Song of Ice and Fire_ does bad shit because they don’t have much of a choice. ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/89 "2006-06-24T17:07:57Z")
Marvel Comics’ _Thunderbolts_ is all about morally grey characters, as the TBolts are all former supervillains striving to become superheroes, with varying degrees of success. Some of them are going to make it, some of them won’t. My two favorites are: **Baron Helmut Zemo** : He’s a power-mad white supremacist with some serious daddy issues. But he’s capable of friendship and even romantic sentiment, and is willing to sacrifice himself for his worst enemy, Captain America (“Maybe saving the world… means saving everyone on it… even flag-drapped fools…”) **Speed Demon** : What can you say about a man who robs banks at night to pay for being a superhero during the day? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2006, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/90 "2006-06-24T19:24:31Z")
[QUOTE=Kyla] Of course, pretty much everyone in _A Song of Ice and Fire_ does bad shit because they don’t have much of a choice. [/QUOTE] Yeah, the only ones I can think of that don’t fit the above and Cersei (her prespective chapters don’t make her any more loveable) and Littlefinger…who may be one of the most despicable characters ever to see print. Even Theon did bad things but for less-than-totally-bad reasons. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/91 "2006-06-24T19:52:50Z")
I nominate Xanatos from Gargoyles. He is a power obsessed megalomaniac, but he also keeps his promises. He also also avoids easy wins. Brian ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/92 "2006-06-24T21:04:11Z")
[QUOTE=Happy Clam] Squeeee! Have you read his third book, _Iron Council_, yet? He’s a pretty hard-line Marxist, apparently, and it shows, as IC is by far his most overtly political work yet. However, it’s still a cracking read; goes into quite a lot of detail on the rest of Bas-Lag, including bits affected by Torque. I loved it, personally- but all the characters were very, very conflicted. Not one of them could really be called an out-and-out hero. (Especially Toro and Ori). [/QUOTE] Yep, it was a great read. I think I prefer _The Scar_ but it’s still one of the best books I’ve read this year. ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2006, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/93 "2006-06-25T20:07:26Z")
Major General William Devereaux in “The Siege” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2006, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718/94 "2006-06-26T14:21:26Z")
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] I refuse to hold the murder-by-buttrape against Hyde. He was avenging Mina Harker. [/QUOTE] Don’t you think that’s a bit extreme a punishment for what was, after all, just battery? Of course, there’s also the treason-to-the-human-race bit, but talk about your cruel-and-unusual punishments :eek: Oh, and **Vagus** , I don’t think Mieville’s that unknown on this Board - he’s quite the enfant terrible on the genre scene. My favourite bit of greyness is in Perdido SS, where you spend the whole book not knowing the Garuda’s crime, but imagining it to be some arcane, untranslateable transgression……only to find out he’s just a rapist with a fancy description. “Choice Theft” indeed Did you catch the reference to him in Iron Council? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/such-a-beautiful-shade-of-grey-or-favorite-ambiguous-characters/361718.md?page=4)