# Suck it! Boy Scouts of America and the Mormon Church! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 3, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207 "2010-05-03T21:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/21 "2010-05-04T01:21:27Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I am not here to disparage those dopers or in fact any individual Boy Scout, just the powers that be that try to pretend that they are a non-religious organization and the homophobic jerkoffs in the Mormon Church who have invaded the organization with their hate. I was involved in the Scouts organization for a number of years and have quite a few fond memories of the organization. I stopped going to Boyscout meetings after moving to Dallas and discovered that they really didn’t do the whole “camping” and outdoorsy stuff there. Anyway, I don’t remember “morally straight” from the Boy Scout Handbook to have anything to do with homosexuality. In fact, I don’t remember homosexuality being mentioned anywhere. So far as religion went, yeah, you were supposed to believe in deity or have a religion of some sort. You could be Buddhist for example, and, once, I saw a merit badge that reflected Buddhism, I think. Anyway, I see where you’re coming from. Like it or not, the higher ups in the Scouting organization have changed it into a different entity than the one I remember. It’s too bad. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/22 "2010-05-04T01:28:26Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > My Girl Scouts just left. We don’t usually bother, but we had two girls thinking of joining, so I actually had the girls do the pledge and the law. I explained to the girls that they could choose to say God (as written in the pledge) or they could say something else (Spirit, World, whatever they want). > > I have five girls, only one of them is a Believer and says God. Three are Unitarians on some point in the atheist/agnostic spectrum. The other I’m not sure of, but she doesn’t usually say God either. Sounds like you’re doing the Scouts proud. > [@](#): > > As a Girl Scout leader its a pain in the butt - we can’t meet at school because school can’t host discriminatory organizations - and rather than fight the battle - closed being a host location to all non-school based clubs. Wait, they didn’t call the Girl Scouts a discriminatory organization, did they? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/23 "2010-05-04T01:33:32Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Wait, they didn’t call the Girl Scouts a discriminatory organization, did they? 😕 Is it? It sounds like there is a mention of God in the pledge. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/24 "2010-05-04T01:51:46Z")
There was a scandal in Oregon with an LDS sponsored Boy Scout troop. Their article mentioned that some huge percent of Boy Scout troops are sponsored by the Mormons. [Here](http://www.newswithviews.com/Lloyd/rees100.htm): > [@](#): > > The Mormon Church, the largest sponsor of Boy Scout Troops, and The American Legion, believed to be the second largest, and [this](http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/scout9704.htm): > [@](#): > > Of the roughly 1,600 Cub Scout packs, Boy Scout troops and Explorer posts in Northwest Oregon and Southwest Washington, 40 percent are sponsored by Mormons. and here is a [national](http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/lds-top.html)number: > [@](#): > > This decision would mean the departure of more than 412,000 Scouts who are sponsored by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In total it is about twelve percent of the entire BSA organization’s membership. ETA: [another](http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/11/lawsuits_to_be_filed_against_b.html)number > [@](#): > > “The Mormon church sponsors 50 percent of the Boy Scout troops in the Western United States.” ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/25 "2010-05-04T01:53:00Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Is it? It sounds like there is a mention of God in the pledge. But unlike the Boy Scouts Girl Scouts can replace the word “God” with whatever they want (doesn’t have to be a deity) when they say the pledge. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/26 "2010-05-04T01:57:21Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > But unlike the Boy Scouts Girl Scouts can replace the word “God” with whatever they want (doesn’t have to be a deity) when they say the pledge. So they can pledge to a rock? Sounds as “nondiscriminatory” as AA. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/27 "2010-05-04T04:42:54Z")
While 'm sure the Mormon church is very supportive of scouting in Mormon areas to claim that there is some Mormon cabal directing scouting is asinine. Boy Scouting is all over the US and Mormons comprise just over 2% of the US population. Your “control” hypothesis is insane relative to the entire US. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/28 "2010-05-04T11:55:43Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Sounds like you’re doing the Scouts proud. > Wait, they didn’t call the Girl Scouts a discriminatory organization, did they? 😕 No, but to be “fair” they just cut access to the facilities for all non-school related clubs. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/29 "2010-05-04T11:56:19Z")
The heavy Mormon influence is news to me. When I lived in Salt Lake, it was no secret that many troops were organized around the Wards and Stakes, but so was everything else, it seemed. Certainly where I grew up, in New Jersey, Mormons were a distinct minority. Despite having many Mormons in key positions (if that’s true), the Boy Scouts still isn’t a religious organization, unless they’ve made some fundamental changes in their charter. They have a plethora of religious badges and programs representing most faiths: > **[Religious emblems programs (Boy Scouts of America)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_emblems_programs_%28Boy_Scouts_of_America%29)** > > A variety of religious emblems programs are used by the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) to encourage youth to learn about their faith and to recognize adults who provide significant service to youth in a religious environment. These religious programs are created, administered and awarded by the various religious groups, not the BSA, but each program must be recognized by the BSA. > The award given by the religious organization consists of a unique medal for each program— usually only worn on formal... It still bugs me that they’re anti-agnostic and anti-Atheist, so I suppose they’re “religious” in the sense that they promote religion over unbelief, but they don’t support any one faith. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/30 "2010-05-04T12:00:35Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > So they can pledge to a rock? > > Sounds as “nondiscriminatory” as AA. Yes. And the girl scouts are discriminatory. You cannot be a boy. They are about as discriminatory as the UU church. You have to respect the beliefs of others and sometimes the word “God” comes up. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/31 "2010-05-04T13:14:10Z")
> [@astro](#): > > While 'm sure the Mormon church is very supportive of scouting in Mormon areas to claim that there is some Mormon cabal directing scouting is asinine. Boy Scouting is all over the US and Mormons comprise just over 2% of the US population. Your “control” hypothesis is insane relative to the entire US. Good. Call me asinine then. Each local troop of Boy Scounts is managed by the “charter organization” – the religious, civic, or social group or school that sponsors them and holds their charter from the national organization, and whch names a local committee of interested adults. They are accountable to Councils and Council Executives, who oversee Scouting in a multicounty regonal area – e.g, Tidewater Virginia, the Inland Empire, the Upper Peninsula. And they in turn are accountable to the National Executve, The National Executive is a self-perpetuating body which names replacements to itself. Over several decades the membership has become largely conservative Mormons interested in Scouting, who have named other conservative Mormons who share their perspective to vacancies, etc., and who have set national policies in line with Mormon moral standards. This can be checked out. It may not be the nefarious conspiracy it’s denouced as, but it certainly isn’t someone’s imagination. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/32 "2010-05-04T13:39:34Z")
The LDS Church (the Mormons) have the Boy Scouts as their official boy’s youth organization, and it is, I believe, the only non-LDS organization that is an official part of LDS programming. What this means is that each LDS ward (parish) sponsors a Boy and Cub scout troops and all active LDS boys of scouting age are scouts and regularly participate. Because all young boys in the LDS church are boy scouts, their membership in BSA is disproportionate to the general LDS population. Although the percentages reported vary (as the stories linked above show), probably somewhere between 25% and 50% of scouts and/or troops are LDS. Also, with expanding church membership and large family size, the LDS scouts are one of the few areas where BSA membership is growing, as contrasted with the general national decline in interest in scouting. The other major factor is that the LDS church, being centrally controlled, has the ability to remove the Boy Scouts from their programming on a church-wide basis. What this means is that if the church hierarchy decides that the BSA is inconsistent with the LDS church’s teachings, it can replace the BSA with some directly church-sponsored group (e.g., start up its own purely LDS scouting program). This would instantly remove a quarter to a half of the BSA’s membership, with the resultant decline in revenues and program participation. As such, not only have LDS members taken leadership roles at the BSA national level, the church as a whole has the ability to say to the national organization that if it doesn’t take positions consistent with church doctrine, the church will leave the Scouts, which could be a fatal financial and organizational blow to the BSA. As such, though the LDS church may not directly control the BSA, the church has the ability to indirectly but effectively control matters of BSA doctrine like the requirement for belief and prohibition against homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/33 "2010-05-04T14:57:41Z")
Well, color me educumated on the Mormons and LDS. I was very active in Boy Scouts as a youngster in the 60s (before finding other, more “interesting” recreational activities) and had no contact at with Mormons in the Scouts. It was definitely religious, but not Mormon religious. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/34 "2010-05-04T15:04:17Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > A denial of cert doesn’t really mean much. The Court might think the lower court is correct. Or they might think the case is wrongly decided, but they’ve got more important shit to do. This was also denial of cert of an interlocutory appeal on a threshold question of standing…the case itself is (and was) still pending, the Ninth Circuit having certified certain questions of law to the California Supreme Court. There’s a decent chance\* that cert will get granted when it’s all said and done. This isn’t particularly newsworthy or meaningful, IMHO. \*At least, as much of a decent chance as there ever is that cert will be granted, since it so rarely happens in _any_ case. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/35 "2010-05-04T15:14:35Z")
I’ve been looking for information on the Boy Scout/LDS connection on the Interwebs, but it’s not very enlightening – an awful lot is unsupported and seems bigoted. It’s certainly not the sort of thing I’d cite to buttress my case. Evidently Penn and teller did a piece on this, but I don’t get Showtime, and the descriptions aren’t much help. There seem to be some newspaper reports, but they’re more concerned with joint LDS/BSA suits about abuse. Is there a reliable cite on this LDS domination of the Boy Scouts? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/36 "2010-05-04T16:16:05Z")
First, a couple of sites to help those of you looking for more information: A pretty negative site that discusses the LDS and BSA relationship: > **[Netfirms | This site is temporarily unavailable](http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/lds-top.html)** > > Small business web hosting offering additional business services such as: domain name registrations, email accounts, web services, FrontPage help, online community resources and various small business solutions. Information on the LDS/BSA relationship is here: [http://ldsbsa.org/](http://ldsbsa.org/) If you are interested in who charters Scout Troops: [http://www.scouting.org/About/FactSheets/operating\_orgs.aspx](http://www.scouting.org/About/FactSheets/operating_orgs.aspx) With that, I am a Scoutmaster in the West. The LDS group is strong, and very supportive of Scouting in general. However, I do not feel their influence except when at meetings at the local Stake where I have to bring my own coffee. Their strength in numbers does mean that their anti-gay bigotry is strong, but that feeling is far from unique to Mormon troops. My Troop covers multiple religions (Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim) and we have plenty of anti-gay parents around in my unit. I have stated that I look forward to the day when “local control” can be put in place, allowing each Charter Organization (The VA Hall, church, PTA, etc.) to determine if someone gay is morally straight. Losing the lease at Balboa is sad to me, simply because it is a place that my in-laws spent years at when they were Scouts. The Scouting groups battles on these subjects is slowly pushing Scouting into fringes - and that is a bad thing. People like me are trying to reach out and help youth, and we are trying to make changes from the inside, but we fight both reactionaries on the inside and the people on the outside who delight in the Scouts losing. I am sometimes stuck between bigots and bullies. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/37 "2010-05-04T16:20:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, color me educumated on the Mormons and LDS. I was very active in Boy Scouts as a youngster in the 60s (before finding other, more “interesting” recreational activities) and had no contact at with Mormons in the Scouts. It was definitely religious, but not Mormon religious. I should add that this all took place on the East Coast. I suspect that, even today, the influence is less in the South and East than in the West. No? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/38 "2010-05-04T16:28:36Z")
> [@](#): > > First, a couple of sites to help those of you looking for more information: > > A pretty negative site that discusses the LDS and BSA relationship: > > [http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/lds-top.html](http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/lds-top.html) > > Information on the LDS/BSA relationship is here: [http://ldsbsa.org/](http://ldsbsa.org/) > > If you are interested in who charters Scout Troops: > > [http://www.scouting.org/About/FactSh...ting\_orgs.aspx](http://www.scouting.org/About/FactSh...ting_orgs.aspx) I’d come across the first one already. I hadn’t noticed that it cited a \*Rolling Stone[/i article, though. The others don’t address the supposed LDS takeover of the BSA – the LDS one is from the group that would be doing the taking over, though, if this is true. The third is interesting – the LDS Church sponsors about as many troops as the rest of the religious groups combined. But the second-largest is the _Methodists_, which is surprising. Based on my own experience (and what many of the anti-LDS sites are saying), I’d expect that Catholics to be the next biggest group. the LDS dominance, though, is pretty clear from sheer numbers. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/39 "2010-05-04T16:30:10Z")
[Quote=Ludovic] > [@](#): > > Boy Scouts of America and the Mormon Church Band name! [/quote] I thought that would be a comic book. Who wins? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/40 "2010-05-04T16:32:25Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > The third is interesting – the LDS Church sponsors about as many troops as the rest of the religious groups combined. But the second-largest is the _Methodists_, which is surprising. Based on my own experience (and what many of the anti-LDS sites are saying), I’d expect that Catholics to be the next biggest group. My experience (again, from the 60s) was that the Boy Scouts were a largely Protestant organization. As a Catholic (at the time) myself, I generally felt like I was in the minority. Not discriminated against, but just that we Catholics were a much smaller group. Of course, even today, Catholics are only about 25% of the US, so although they are the largest single church, they certainly aren’t a majority. So, I don’t think the Catholic Church made much of an effort, if at all, to be a force in the Boy Scouts. Probably a good thing they didn’t… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207.md?page=3)