# Suck it! Boy Scouts of America and the Mormon Church! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 3, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207 "2010-05-03T21:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/41 "2010-05-04T16:46:58Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Yes. > > And the girl scouts are discriminatory. You cannot be a boy. > > They are about as discriminatory as the UU church. You have to respect the beliefs of others and sometimes the word “God” comes up. Sometimes the word “God” comes up when? What some are objecting to is that God comes up in the pledge with a promise to serve Him. That’s more than a word just coming up. That they put “God” in the pledge and tell you can replace it isn’t going to fool many people; it’s an endorsement of religion. Also, they don’t tell you that you can simply omit that part, but replace the promise to serve God with another word that reflects a spiritual belief. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/42 "2010-05-04T16:49:51Z")
The BSA keeps a separate site for discussion of its legal battles: > **[Legal | Boy Scouts of America](https://www.scouting.org/legal/)** > > BSA Legal Website Terms & Conditions Privacy Policy Donor Privacy Policy Membership Policy ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/43 "2010-05-04T17:05:39Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Evidently Penn and teller did a piece on this, but I don’t get Showtime, and the descriptions aren’t much help. There seem to be some newspaper reports, but they’re more concerned with joint LDS/BSA suits about abuse. I have that episode. I recall that they did give statistics, but the show is more entertainment than scholarship, so they didn’t really offer citations to primary sources on the question of the Mormon connection, although they did denounce the MOrmons heartily. I can watch it again to see if there are specific resources mentioned. If I recall correctly, most of the episode was made up of interviews with individuals who supported the ban on gays and atheists and those who opposed it. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/44 "2010-05-04T17:09:36Z")
You can watch the Penn and Teller Bullshit! episode at the link below. [http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/150969/detail/](http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/150969/detail/) ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/45 "2010-05-04T17:19:50Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Sometimes the word “God” comes up when? What some are objecting to is that God comes up in the pledge with a promise to serve Him. That’s more than a word just coming up. That they put “God” in the pledge and tell you can replace it isn’t going to fool many people; it’s an endorsement of religion. Also, they don’t tell you that you can simply omit that part, but replace the promise to serve God with another word that reflects a spiritual belief. Except in my troop, it doesn’t. Its optional in the promise. One girl says it. Several say Earth, one says Universe. Or are you saying that because religion is an OPTIONAL component of the Girl Scouts, its discrimnatory. Thats getting a little close to the “freedom of religion is freedom FROM religion” argument. My daughters athiest beliefs should not keep her troopmates from promising to serve God, should they choose to. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/46 "2010-05-04T17:29:07Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Except in my troop, it doesn’t. Its optional in the promise. One girl says it. Several say Earth, one says Universe. I’m not following you. It doesn’t what in your troop? > [@](#): > > Or are you saying that because religion is an OPTIONAL component of the Girl Scouts, its discrimnatory. I’m saying that promising to serve “God” in a pledge is an endorsement of religion. > [@](#): > > Thats getting a little close to the “freedom of religion is freedom FROM religion” argument. My daughters athiest beliefs should not keep her troopmates from promising to serve God, should they choose to. I’m talking about what promise is made in the pledge, not what your daughter and her religious/spiritual friends choose to do. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/47 "2010-05-04T17:30:51Z")
Speaking as an atheist, I can’t think of any substitute for the word “god” that would make any sense to me. Pledging that I would “serve the Earth” or “serve the Universe” would be meaningless in my view. Well, wait a minute. Maybe I spoke too fast. How about “serve humanity”? That might be suitably vague but meaningful in a good-intentions way. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/48 "2010-05-04T17:31:35Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > I’m not following you. It doesn’t what in your troop? > I’m saying that promising to serve “God” in a pledge is an endorsement of religion. > I’m talking about what promise is made in the pledge, not what your daughter and her religious/spiritual friends choose to do. Its an optional part of the pledge. We have one girl who uses it in the troop. How is an optional word an endorsement of religion? [http://www.girlscouts.org/program/gs\_central/promise\_law/](http://www.girlscouts.org/program/gs_central/promise_law/) ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/49 "2010-05-04T17:32:57Z")
Is the BSA tax exempt? Do they get Fereral money for any of their programs? If the answer to these is YES, then it would seem that the US government must view the BSA as a religious institution. Otherwise, those published membership and employment policies would bar them from any Federal funds, and most states’ funds. There is an exemption from non-discrimination rules for religions, so if they are getting Federal money and still discriminating, they must have paperwork filed somewhere that states they are some kind of religious institution. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/50 "2010-05-04T17:34:48Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Speaking as an atheist, I can’t think of any substitute for the word “god” that would make any sense to me. Pledging that I would “serve the Earth” or “serve the Universe” would be meaningless in my view. > > Well, wait a minute. Maybe I spoke too fast. How about “serve humanity”? That might be suitably vague but meaningful in a good-intentions way. Humanity would be fine. Even Self is fine. A word that is meaningful to you. Being silent is fine. We’ve been doing a whole bunch of ecology stuff, so serving the Earth is big to these girls right now. Their values and beliefs will develop over time. ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/51 "2010-05-04T17:37:27Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > …I have stated that I look forward to the day when “local control” can be put in place, allowing each Charter Organization (The VA Hall, church, PTA, etc.) to determine if someone gay is morally straight. In practice, that’s how it works around here. Our troop leadership includes a lesbian dad, and I can think of a few other gay/lesbian couples in other units in our council (Come to think of it, our chartering church may have a lesbian pastor, though I don’t have any reason to ask.) Regarding religion, I’ve been a Cub Scouts den leader. I taught my scouts that we should know and understand our families’ beliefs and values and respect one another’s beliefs. Whether we believe in a specific religion, are agnostic or atheist, we have a lot in common and can respect and appreciate our differences. If this is somehow intolerant, please explain how. I’ve thought about wearing a [Rainbow Knot](http://www.scoutingforall.org/data/layer02/store.html) in case a kid needs someone to talk to, but I haven’t since any gay/lesbian or atheist Scout could probably talk to anyone in the neighborhood about their sexuality or beliefs. Besides, it would come off as polemicism, and I’d like to just keep the politics out of the kids’ experiences. In the meantime, Scouting, at the national level has these stupid policies, and the policies are generally enforced or ignored at the whim of the local units. The only fallout that I’ve seen (and it is a real problem) is that the intolerance of some folks in another city gives the wrong impression of us, and it drives parents away from a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/52 "2010-05-04T17:40:27Z")
Btw, [Wikipedia has the stats.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America#Units_and_chartered_organizations) 16.5% of all Scouts are associated with the LDS. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/53 "2010-05-04T17:44:08Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Its an optional part of the pledge. We have one girl who uses it in the troop. How is an optional word an endorsement of religion? It’s optional to replace the word with another that reflects a spiritual belief, not omit that part entirely. Not that the option to omit it would be much better; there shouldn’t be a promise to serve God to begin with. Again, giving others the option to replace ‘God’ with another word is still an endorsement of religion since they’re starting off with the word God to begin with instead of not having a promise to serve a deity at all. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/54 "2010-05-04T17:51:57Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Is the BSA tax exempt? Do they get Fereral money for any of their programs? > > If the answer to these is YES, then it would seem that the US government must view the BSA as a religious institution. Otherwise, those published membership and employment policies would bar them from any Federal funds, and most states’ funds. There is an exemption from non-discrimination rules for religions, so if they are getting Federal money and still discriminating, they must have paperwork filed somewhere that states they are some kind of religious institution. Yes, the BSA is tax exempt and local councils (and some troops) have tax exempt status as well. I THINK that in one of the BSA’s Supreme Court cases the BSA was judged to be a religious organization. This was in the fight where the other sides arguing that he BSA is a public accommodation. The BSA won its right to Freedom of Association, but has at the same time lost a lot of community support. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/55 "2010-05-04T17:55:06Z")
> [@cornflakes](#): > > Btw, [Wikipedia has the stats.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America#Units_and_chartered_organizations) 16.5% of all Scouts are associated with the LDS. True - though many LDS units are “paper units.” The LDS church automatically enrolls every boy of age, regardless of participation rates. Since their membership fees are covered by the Church, there is no incentive to clean the rolls. By comparison, my Troop drops Scouts who do not show up and write a check at the time of re-chartering. So while 16.5% of registered Scouts might be LDS, I do not know how many of them are active. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/56 "2010-05-04T17:56:47Z")
> [@cornflakes](#): > > In practice, that’s how it works around here. Our troop leadership includes a lesbian dad, and I can think of a few other gay/lesbian couples in other units in our council (Come to think of it, our chartering church may have a lesbian pastor, though I don’t have any reason to ask.) Regarding religion, I’ve been a Cub Scouts den leader. I taught my scouts that we should know and understand our families’ beliefs and values and respect one another’s beliefs. Whether we believe in a specific religion, are agnostic or atheist, we have a lot in common and can respect and appreciate our differences. If this is somehow intolerant, please explain how. > > I’ve thought about wearing a [Rainbow Knot](http://www.scoutingforall.org/data/layer02/store.html) in case a kid needs someone to talk to, but I haven’t since any gay/lesbian or atheist Scout could probably talk to anyone in the neighborhood about their sexuality or beliefs. Besides, it would come off as polemicism, and I’d like to just keep the politics out of the kids’ experiences. > > In the meantime, Scouting, at the national level has these stupid policies, and the policies are generally enforced or ignored at the whim of the local units. The only fallout that I’ve seen (and it is a real problem) is that the intolerance of some folks in another city gives the wrong impression of us, and it drives parents away from a good thing. You will hit a road block if one of your agnostic or atheist Scouts goes for their Eagle BOR and states their religious beliefs, however. They won’t pass their BOR - and the BOR at the district level seems to ALWAYS have someone asking for a Scout’s definition of Reverent, and how they practice it. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/57 "2010-05-04T18:01:05Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > It’s optional to replace the word with another that reflects a spiritual belief, not omit that part entirely. Not that the option to omit it would be much better; there shouldn’t be a promise to serve God to begin with. Again, giving others the option to replace ‘God’ with another word is still an endorsement of religion since they’re starting off with the word God to begin with instead of not having a promise to serve a deity at all. We will have to agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/58 "2010-05-04T18:01:33Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > You will hit a road block if one of your agnostic or atheist Scouts goes for their Eagle BOR and states their religious beliefs, however. They won’t pass their BOR - and the BOR at the district level seems to ALWAYS have someone asking for a Scout’s definition of Reverent, and how they practice it. Maybe so. I’ll ask around. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/59 "2010-05-04T18:06:29Z")
> [@cornflakes](#): > > Maybe so. I’ll ask around. Unfortunately, you are also stuck in a nice quandary. Do you tell Scouts to lie every time they give the Oath? When they recite “Reverent” in the Law, how do they approach that as well? ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/60 "2010-05-04T18:13:38Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Unfortunately, you are also stuck in a nice quandary. Do you tell Scouts to lie every time they give the Oath? When they recite “Reverent” in the Law, how do they approach that as well? What do they revere? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207.md?page=4)