# Suck it! Boy Scouts of America and the Mormon Church! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 3, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207 "2010-05-03T21:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Any\_Other\_Name](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Any\_Other\_Name](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Any_Other_Name)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/141 "2010-05-19T20:18:09Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > And, as I pointed out earlier, there seems to be at least one organization that already exists that targets similar opportunities for outdoor activities – Campfire USA – and it has the virtue of not discriminating along any lines, including gender. Campfire USA has one resident camp in NY, one in PA, none in New England; a scattering of day camps in some states on New England. They’re not going to provide the outdoor opportunities that the Boy Scouts do. Count me as another local Scout leader who disagrees with National’s stance, and if told to follow it by refusing to allow an adult or a boy to join, would refuse to do so. Change from within, on the local level. If you want to place blame, blame the national organizations of the churches which charter so many Scout Troops and Packs, especially in the heartland of the country. The national church organization (primarily LDS and Methodist) are the source of the discrimination; blame BSA National by extension; but blaming local leaders who do not support discrimination, who oppose it within their groups, and who promote awareness among other local leaders, is a reach. One thing I’ve learned about while reading this thread is Scouting for All. Interesting organization. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/142 "2010-05-19T20:24:28Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > The real truth comes out. Like I said: disingenuous and pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/143 "2010-05-19T20:41:16Z")
> [@Any\_Other\_Name](#): > > Campfire USA has one resident camp in NY, one in PA, none in New England; a scattering of day camps in some states on New England. They’re not going to provide the outdoor opportunities that the Boy Scouts do. Once public resources currently being dominated by the Boy Scouts are freed, there’s no reason an organization like Campfire or another one like it couldn’t step in and meet whatever demand is there. > [@](#): > > Change from within, on the local level. This has clearly proven to be ineffective. > [@](#): > > If you want to place blame, blame the national organizations of the churches which charter so many Scout Troops and Packs, especially in the heartland of the country. The national church organization (primarily LDS and Methodist) are the source of the discrimination; blame BSA National by extension; but blaming local leaders who do not support discrimination, who oppose it within their groups, and who promote awareness among other local leaders, is a reach. Do these local leaders openly declare their separation from the national organization’s discriminatory principles or do they simply keep their heads down and try to avoid implementing them? If it’s the latter, then that’s not a path for change at all. Why shouldn’t local leaders get the blame for continuing to facilitate and enable the national organization? If they truly disagree with the national organization’s principles, why shouldn’t we hold them to the standard of joining a different organization, or starting a new one, that doesn’t offend? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/144 "2010-05-19T20:46:26Z")
Perzackly. What does the national BSA do for the Troops except take a cut of the dues and embarrass them? Why shouldn’t a Troop leadership with a _serious_ interest in upholding American tolerance ideals just cut themselves loose? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/145 "2010-05-19T20:51:47Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Understood just fine. I understand your reflexive hatred for the damn liberal ACLU and your reflexive defensiveness for the Scouts and every single damn policy they follow, including the hateful ones, is more powerful by far than reason itself. > > I do hope you’re not passing it on to the boys, to make yet another generation of gay-haters, but that’s only hope. You just can’t fucking read, can you? How many times must I post that I am AGAINST THE BIGOTRY OF THE BSA??? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/146 "2010-05-19T20:52:44Z")
But not nearly as much as you hate the ACLU for trying to fix it. Understood just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/147 "2010-05-19T20:55:44Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > You just can’t fucking read, can you? How many times must I post that I am AGAINST THE BIGOTRY OF THE BSA??? You don’t do shit about it, and you argue that nobody _should_ do shit about it, because of some indefinable harm to the kiddies, who may well be better off in another organization. You sob about the status quo and then insist that the status quo must be maintained. Grow some balls or get a new argument. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/148 "2010-05-19T20:56:34Z")
> [@Any\_Other\_Name](#): > > Campfire USA has one resident camp in NY, one in PA, none in New England; a scattering of day camps in some states on New England. They’re not going to provide the outdoor opportunities that the Boy Scouts do. > > Count me as another local Scout leader who disagrees with National’s stance, and if told to follow it by refusing to allow an adult or a boy to join, would refuse to do so. > > Change from within, on the local level. > > If you want to place blame, blame the national organizations of the churches which charter so many Scout Troops and Packs, especially in the heartland of the country. The national church organization (primarily LDS and Methodist) are the source of the discrimination; blame BSA National by extension; but blaming local leaders who do not support discrimination, who oppose it within their groups, and who promote awareness among other local leaders, is a reach. > > One thing I’ve learned about while reading this thread is Scouting for All. Interesting organization. Do you, as a local leader, have any say, or vote, in the policies of the BSA? If not, what body makes these policies, and who are they accountable to? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/149 "2010-05-19T21:00:37Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Because they do. It is their type of collateral damage. A (not THE, but A) result of their actions is to reduce opportunities for kids. The BSA, you mean? Yes, you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/150 "2010-05-19T21:16:21Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > You don’t do shit about it, and you argue that nobody _should_ do shit about it, because of some indefinable harm to the kiddies, who may well be better off in another organization. You sob about the status quo and then insist that the status quo must be maintained. Grow some balls or get a new argument. post 87, dumbshit. Again - learn to read. > [@](#): > > No - the lawsuits when focusing on special privileges are the right thing to do. I hate to admit that, but it is the truth. No one organization should be allowed a monopoly on those special deals. Show me where I have defended the status quo. ---
**Author:** ![Any\_Other\_Name](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Any\_Other\_Name](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Any_Other_Name)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/151 "2010-05-19T21:16:57Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Do you, as a local leader, have any say, or vote, in the policies of the BSA? If not, what body makes these policies, and who are they accountable to? No. The relationships between National, Councils, and local isn’t clear, at least to me. I’m sure others know, but I think National in many ways prefers that things aren’t clear. Local relationships are clearer to me. Troops and packs are chartered to a local organization; ours is not a religious organization. I haven’t discussed this topic with them, but if they supported National’s policy I’d be shocked. And I don’t know any local leaders in my are who would support throwing out a scout or an adult without legitimate cause. By local leaders, I mean Troops and Packs. At Council level, there are far too many employees. ---
**Author:** ![Any\_Other\_Name](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Any\_Other\_Name](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Any_Other_Name)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/152 "2010-05-19T21:26:56Z")
Interesting link on National’s organization: [BSA National](http://www.usscouts.org/aboutbsa/bsaorg.asp) I’ll dig deeper later. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/153 "2010-05-19T21:42:42Z")
I’m probably going to see my heavily-Scout-involved uncle this weekend, and I know for a fact he’s an atheist like me (or at the very least a strong agnostic). I’ll have to try to remember to ask him how he manages in the BSA. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/154 "2010-05-19T22:34:30Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Please don’t assume that all Scout Leaders agree or support this stuff (as I have tried to explain here). We are, for the most part, a reflection of the society we live in. I put on a dorky uniform to help kids. While the BSA might be reflective of the feelings of many _individuals_ in the society we live in, you’d have to look pretty hard to find another mainstream group which explicitly denies membership to atheists, agnostics and gays. What would you tell your troop if they asked why gay kids aren’t allowed to join? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/155 "2010-05-19T23:06:00Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Show me where I have defended the status quo. > [@Algher](#): > > Possibly, but that would require them removing all references to God and spirituality, their gender specific rules, and their homophobic interpretations. > > In the meantime, camps are closed and kids loose opportunities. > [@Algher](#): > > However, each lawsuit that has shut down some of the BSA’s activities has ONLY served to reduce opportunities for kids. NOBODY is stepping into the gap. To ignore this reality is ALSO a bad thing. I was trying to point out another cost of these lawsuits that nobody seems to care about. > [@Algher](#): > > The intent of the ACLU is to remove the BSA from any public space. > > The BSA won’t change while under attack. They have assets and instead they purchase land, and remove themselves a bit more from the public square. That serves neither the public nor the BSA. > [@Algher](#): > > No - the lawsuits when focusing on special privileges are the right thing to do. **I hate to admit that** , but it is the truth. To be fair, when I did go back over your posts, they’re more measured than I remember. However, you’re still being ridiculously defensive of the very organization that’s the problem. You are an abused wife who refuses to let the police handle her abusive husband because she doesn’t want the kids to not have a father. You attack the social worker whose first priority is to make sure the kids are safe in a healthy environment, because while the worker would prefer to keep the family whole and get the father to reform, he’ll move the kids to a new home if that’s not possible. **The BSA cares more about its bigotry than its kids.** It sacrifices its kids so it can avoid having to change its policies. And both it and you want to blame the ACLU for that. At least the BSA’s leaders have the excuse that they probably believe exclusion is healthier than inclusion, but _you_ agree that it’s bigoted, and yet you still want to blame the ACLU. So you want to change the BSA from the inside. Noble, no sarcasm there. But it will take a lot longer than external forces will, and in the meantime you have to teach undesirable children that they have to hide who they are. How on earth is _that_ healthy? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/156 "2010-05-19T23:15:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > While the BSA might be reflective of the feelings of many _individuals_ in the society we live in, you’d have to look pretty hard to find another mainstream group which explicitly denies membership to atheists, agnostics and gays. > > What would you tell your troop if they asked why gay kids aren’t allowed to join? I have told them that the BSA interprets Morally Straight as being conflict. I also tell them that I consider that to be a violation of the 12th Scout Law of Reverence, where we are supposed to respect all religions - and that there are many religions (including my own personal Christian congregation) that do NOT consider homosexuality to be in violation of any moral tenets. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/157 "2010-05-20T00:37:47Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > You know - it is a short thread. You might want to re-read ALL of my posts. I have been pretty clear that I disagree with the bigotry, that I try to make changes from the inside, and that I even agreed that the lawsuits have merit. Your problem is that you’re casting the organization that is fighting bigotry as the bad guy. If the ACLU were to succeed and opportunities were to evaporate for the kids, this isn’t the ACLU’s fault, it the fault of the organization that’s acting like real shit, the BSA. How long do we wait for change from within? The BSA seems to be moving towards the bigotry, not away from it. Show that the BSA is changing for the better or about to, then I might have some sympathy for the view that the ACLU should back off. Until then, I’m 100% with the ACLU. And if the pressure from the ACLU means that the BSA disappears rather than changes its abominable policy, so be it. I won’t mourn the loss of an orgaization with such backwards beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207/158 "2010-05-20T00:56:40Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > To be fair, when I did go back over your posts, they’re more measured than I remember. > > However, you’re still being ridiculously defensive of the very organization that’s the problem. You are an abused wife who refuses to let the police handle her abusive husband because she doesn’t want the kids to not have a father. You attack the social worker whose first priority is to make sure the kids are safe in a healthy environment, because while the worker would prefer to keep the family whole and get the father to reform, he’ll move the kids to a new home if that’s not possible. > > **The BSA cares more about its bigotry than its kids.** It sacrifices its kids so it can avoid having to change its policies. And both it and you want to blame the ACLU for that. At least the BSA’s leaders have the excuse that they probably believe exclusion is healthier than inclusion, but _you_ agree that it’s bigoted, and yet you still want to blame the ACLU. > > So you want to change the BSA from the inside. Noble, no sarcasm there. But it will take a lot longer than external forces will, and in the meantime you have to teach undesirable children that they have to hide who they are. How on earth is _that_ healthy? I am going to stick my neck out here and say that **Algher** is doing something essential, unsung, and unthanked. Your points are valid but mostly with reference to the National Council and its Executive in particular, plus the “trickle-down” effect they have on regional and local policy. I am reasonably sure when first brought to public scrutiny, the standards barred boys as well as leaders identifying as gay (not necessarily actively in a relationship) or as atheist/agnostic. That has changed – and I know for a fact that that change came from within – people like our friend Larry and **Algher** holding the line on what was improper to require. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suck-it-boy-scouts-of-america-and-the-mormon-church/538207.md?page=7)