# Sudden thought about runout grooves **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 20, 2021, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676 "2021-06-20T06:07:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Didi44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47c2d/32.png) [@Didi44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Didi44)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2021, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/21 "2021-06-20T18:36:12Z")
Trivia. In the space between the runout groove and label, there would sometimes be a hand etched message. Once you’ve seen it, it becomes obvious whenever you look at the record. ---
**Author:** ![MindsEye\_Watering](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindseye_watering/32/3619_2.png) [@MindsEye\_Watering](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MindsEye_Watering)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2021, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/22 "2021-06-20T19:16:02Z")
> [@Didi44](#): > > Not wax, lacquer. Yup. And much later, Direct to Metal (DMM). No acetate involved. ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2021, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/23 "2021-06-20T22:58:06Z")
I had this! Lost it many years ago and IIRC it was one of the floppy records that came with the magazine, although I can’t remember which number it was. ---
**Author:** ![Fridgemagnet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/22d042/32.png) [@Fridgemagnet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fridgemagnet)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2021, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/24 "2021-06-20T23:07:34Z")
The tonearm return mechanism is definitely triggered by the position of the tonearm - if it takes a couple of revolutions to kick in then that’s just down to the delay caused by the operation of the cams and cogs in the gubbins. Nice record decks will let the needle loop in the playout groove forever unless someone intervenes as any auto-return mechanism would degrade the audio by introducing parts whose sympathetic vibrations would be picked up by the needle. Here’s something I noticed as a small child, but took me decades to work out what was going on: Often I could very faintly hear the start of a track a second or two before it came out of the speakers at the proper volume. As a child I decided it was some sort of delay between the needle and the speaker, but then when I learned a bit more about electronics I realised that couldn’t explain it as the delays were way too long for the types of circuits involved, but couldn’t think of what could actually be happening. Then one day it hit me - I was hearing exactly one revolution’s worth of delay (1.8 s for 33 1/3 rpm, etc.), so one groove must be leaving a very faint trace in the side wall of the next groove along, probably due to the stamped-molten-vinyl manufacturing process. Possibly these faint traces are formed as the molten plastic cools (still a hypothesis - haven’t proven that one yet). ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/25 "2021-06-21T03:04:36Z")
> [@Fridgemagnet](#): > > Often I could very faintly hear the start of a track a second or two before it came out of the speakers at the proper volume. Yes! I remember noticing this too on some records I had as a child in the early 1960s. The specific record(s) that I can recall were 45s. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/26 "2021-06-21T04:19:14Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > That sounds over complicated. Why not just a switch that’s triggered when the arm is at a certain angle? I suspect the shape of the runout groove serves no specific purpose, but is just a variation in the pressing process. No idea, but [from here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonograph_record#Structure): > Automatic turntables rely on the position or angular velocity of the arm, as it reaches the wider spacing in the groove, to trigger a mechanism that lifts the arm off the record. Precisely because of this mechanism, most automatic turntables are incapable of playing any audio in the lock groove, since they will lift the arm before it reaches that groove. And, now that I reread that, I see it says **position** or angular velocity, so how close it is to the center would trip it as well (or, probably not ‘trip it as well’ but rather ‘trip it on some record players’). However, I can see inherent problems with that. Namely, there would have to be a standard for where it trips, meaning a standard for the size of the label (so you don’t run the stylus up onto the label). All records, or at least all record companies might not like that. Being able to squeeze a few more minutes onto a record by using a smaller label might be nice to have in some circumstances. And to show my (young) age of only 40 years old, or make everyone else feel old, did the smaller records (45’s?) have the same size label, I really don’t remember? ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/27 "2021-06-21T06:27:16Z")
> [@Fridgemagnet](#): > > Then one day it hit me - I was hearing exactly one revolution’s worth of delay (1.8 s for 33 1/3 rpm, etc.), so one groove must be leaving a very faint trace in the side wall of the next groove along, probably due to the stamped-molten-vinyl manufacturing process. I’ve heard of print through with magnetic tape but not on a vinyl record before. Weird. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/28 "2021-06-21T06:35:31Z")
When I first heard it I though it might have been due to the cutter deforming the just laid down groove slightly as it cut the next one. However, even if this did happen I would expect that high frequencies would be significantly attenuated. I think the general feeling is that the phenomenon is actually print through from the tape. Timing it carefully would probably be definitive. Tape reel rotation and LP speeds are not all that dissimilar, so it is easy to be confused about which is the cause. I’m almost tempted to break out the turntable. Almost. It is in the cellar, and probably needs a new drive belt. The preamp is also not quite serviceable. I don’t have quite the nostalgia quotient needed to do this. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/29 "2021-06-21T07:10:33Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Some poking around (well, reading wiki) suggests that the stylus getting picked up and returned isn’t triggered by how close it is to the center of the record, but rather, how fast it’s moving. When it gets to the run out groove, it’s suddenly moving much faster than before and the mechanism gets triggered. That doesn’t make sense to me. The runout groove is a continuous loop, and is usually perfectly circular. In a normal record, when the tone arm hits that groove, it no longer moves at all. I guess it could be based on speed but the other way, in that it detects if the tone arm has stopped moving. But then I’ve read that some records which wanted the record to continue forever would have to make the runout groove larger, being further from the center, in order to avoid the auto stop mechanism. I’m also pretty sure I’ve seen some people on YouTube show off an auto stop and/or auto return record player, and just manually move the arm inward to make it shut off. May I ask where a link to the source for your statement? ---
**Author:** ![Didi44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47c2d/32.png) [@Didi44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Didi44)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/30 "2021-06-21T07:46:42Z")
It could be tape print-through, poor pressing, poor vinyl or record grooves too close together. [https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/vinyl-pre-track-ghosting-question.87677/](https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/vinyl-pre-track-ghosting-question.87677/) [https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/vinyl-quot-bleed-through-quot-need-set-up-advice](https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/vinyl-quot-bleed-through-quot-need-set-up-advice) The real test would be to find a direct-to-disc record that was mastered directly from the lacquer master and not from tape. One of the things done for audiophile records in the 70’s and 80’s was to reduce the time on a record to increase the spacing between the grooves. So instead of 22 minutes per side, there may be only 15 minutes. This was an issue for direct-to-disc jazz records as the musicians typically improvise and may lose track of the recording time. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/31 "2021-06-21T07:56:23Z")
> [@Didi44](#): > > The real test would be to find a direct-to-disc record that was mastered directly from the lacquer master and not from tape. That had occurred to me. I have one in my collection that I know was so created. One thing that direct to disk recording did however was run a fixed groove spacing. Since they didn’t know what the amplitude of what was to come was they couldn’t adaptively space the grooves. They tended to cut pretty hot too, so would pick a wide spacing from the outset. I suspect the ability to perform adaptive groove spacing and thus push the limits of spacing might have been one of the aspects of cutting that could contribute to inter-groove bleed. If I had the energy I might do the experiment. Not going to happen right now. I’m sure the annals of the Audio Engineering Society contain a full coverage. I might have a search. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/32 "2021-06-21T08:40:14Z")
I once did a tour of the EMI record factory in London. We started at the huge hoppers full of plastic granules. To one side there was a workshop where they were mincing unsold LPs and the trimmings. We were told that this recycled plastic was only used for 45s. We saw the etching process for ‘mothers’ and ‘masters’ and then the presses where the records were printed. The soft vinyl was extruded and a blob place by hand on a plate. The centre paper discs were added at this time before the press formed the record. This was not a fast process and each record took several minutes from extrusion to trimming and passing on to Quality Control. When it was passed (a random sample went through further tests in an anechoic chamber) it was put in a plain sleeve and on a shelf in the warehouse. The printed covers were stored separately and stocks were kept to a minimum as they were more expensive to produce than the records and could not be recycled like the vinyl. Classical records were much more profitable than pop because they were much longer-lived. In the offices, there were dozens of people whose job it was to phone the record stores and take the daily orders. Naturally, they would also be pushing whatever EMI wanted to promote at the time. These orders were dispatched overnight to the stores all over the country. Their contract artists were expected to tour the factory to show themselves to the workers. The Beatles were apparently quite good about it - the Sex Pistols less so. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/33 "2021-06-21T13:31:10Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Their contract artists were expected to tour the factory to show themselves to the workers. The Beatles were apparently quite good about it - the Sex Pistols less so. Missing out on a one on one with Sid Vicious must have been very disappointing for the staff. [![](https://thevinylfactory.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/plant-1-vf.jpg) ](https://thevinylfactory.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/plant-1-vf.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/34 "2021-06-21T15:07:48Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > That doesn’t make sense to me. The runout groove is a continuous loop, and is usually perfectly circular. In a normal record, when the tone arm hits that groove, it no longer moves at all. If we want to get technical…the groove that spins in a continuous loop is the “lock groove”, the spiral that goes from the end of the recording to the lock groove is the lead-out groove. It’s that spiral that moves the head, quickly, from the end of the recording to the continuous part that’s tripping the mechanism, if the mechanism is the type tripped by angular velocity of the tone arm. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/35 "2021-06-21T15:28:01Z")
Some of them behaved very badly so they discontinued the practice. ---
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/36 "2021-06-21T15:47:41Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > > [@Fridgemagnet](#): > > > > Then one day it hit me - I was hearing exactly one revolution’s worth of delay (1.8 s for 33 1/3 rpm, etc.), so one groove must be leaving a very faint trace in the side wall of the next groove along, probably due to the stamped-molten-vinyl manufacturing process. > > I’ve heard of print through with magnetic tape but not on a vinyl record before. Weird. Cecil covered this in a column in one of the Straight Dope books. It had to do with how the master tape was stored, and that there was some bleed-through on the tape that made it onto the vinyl master. Sorry I don’t remember the specifics and couldn’t find the article. ---
**Author:** ![MindsEye\_Watering](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindseye_watering/32/3619_2.png) [@MindsEye\_Watering](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MindsEye_Watering)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/37 "2021-06-21T16:32:16Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > It had to do with how the master tape was stored This is why most professionals are taught to store tape “Tails Out” to prevent audible print-through. ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/38 "2021-06-21T17:36:08Z")
I wonder if that’s where Page got the idea for Heartbreaker. Because I recall reading that it’s something they recreated in the studio. Sorry for the hijack, but as long as you guys are talking about this, it seems like striking while the iron is hot, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/39 "2021-06-21T18:59:23Z")
> [@Didi44](#): > > This was an issue for direct-to-disc jazz records as the musicians typically improvise and may lose track of the recording time. Hence this little gem from _The Good Place_. [“Wrap it up, Elton John.”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnxnHyJwEwM) ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676/40 "2021-06-21T19:04:08Z")
> [@MindsEye\_Watering](#): > > This is why most professionals are taught to store tape “Tails Out” to prevent audible print-through. ?? The reason I heard for “tail out” was that it ensured even tension and no edges sticking up when the tape was stored after playing. You pull the tape out of the library, rewind it, then immediately play it so any uneveness from the rewinding is tempered with the playback, then put the reel back in storage again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sudden-thought-about-runout-grooves/944676.md?page=3)