# Suddenly these Statues offend people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2017, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636 "2017-08-25T11:07:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/181 "2017-08-28T10:42:02Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > This is strictly an Americanism - in other places, Vasco da Gama and Prince Henry the Navigator are the icons of that Age. I mean, we know who Columbus is, and all that he did. _All_ that he did. They went south and east, though. Columbus went west. ---
**Author:** ![Reddy\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Reddy\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reddy_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/182 "2017-08-28T11:03:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > This is strictly an Americanism - in other places, Vasco da Gama and Prince Henry the Navigator are the icons of that Age. I mean, we know who Columbus is, and all that he did. _All_ that he did. Yes, but I am talking from an American perspective about an American issue. Here, he is THE symbol of that age, warts and all. Was he a terrible man morally? Yes. Was he also a great explorer? Yes. You can celebrate one aspect, while also acknowledging the other. Here in America, Columbus is more of a symbol than a man, and that is why I oppose the removal of any statue; because the symbol transcends the evil acts. If you believe in an afterlife, he is already answering for his temporal sins. I do not subscribe to the doctrine of Damnatio memoriae, except in the case of traitors. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/183 "2017-08-28T11:37:14Z")
Cries of Columbus and Washington are just straw men made from marble and bronze. It bears no relevance to the merits of confederate statues. The same is true of slippery slopes and erasing history. They are hysterical overreactions to a simple debate: do monuments to treason and slavery belong in our public spaces. Everything else is misdirection. The funniest part of all this is the claim that history is being rewritten. I certainly hope so, because what they have been teaching southern children in public schools for decades is utter, fantastical nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Reddy\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Reddy\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reddy_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/184 "2017-08-28T12:11:27Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Cries of Columbus and Washington are just straw men made from marble and bronze. It bears no relevance to the merits of confederate statues. > > The same is true of slippery slopes and erasing history. They are hysterical overreactions to a simple debate: do monuments to treason and slavery belong in our public spaces. Everything else is misdirection. > > The funniest part of all this is the claim that history is being rewritten. I certainly hope so, because what they have been teaching southern children in public schools for decades is utter, fantastical nonsense. So the fact that the Mayor of NYC is planning to remove a statue of Columbus is pure straw? Even though he himself has stated his intention to do so? What about the calls to remove the statue of Theodore Roosevelt from outside the Museum of Natural History? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/185 "2017-08-28T12:42:20Z")
> [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > So the fact that the Mayor of NYC is planning to remove a statue of Columbus is pure straw? Even though he himself has stated his intention to do so? It’s unrelated to the issue of whether we should remove confederate statues. > [@](#): > > What about the calls to remove the statue of Theodore Roosevelt from outside the Museum of Natural History? That’s also unrelated to the issue of whether we should remove confederate statues. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/186 "2017-08-28T12:50:48Z")
This is the least slippery slope of all time. “If we take down the statues of slavers, next they’ll take down the statues of pirates!” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/187 "2017-08-28T13:03:25Z")
> [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > So the fact that the Mayor of NYC is planning to remove a statue of Columbus is pure straw? Even though he himself has stated his intention to do so? Got a cite for the “intention” bit, other than some hyperbolic right-wing rumor mill? Because AFAICT, what de Blasio has done is to announce the convening of a task force to come up with guidelines for making decisions about **all** potentially controversial NYC monuments. The Columbus Circle statue is on the review list with hundreds of others for **possible** removal, but I know of no evidence that de Blasio has stated that he **intends** to remove it. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/188 "2017-08-28T13:06:22Z")
I ask myself “What would TR do” and decide he would laugh like a loon at the thought of a statue to him, check to see if his books were still in print, and go off to Africa to shoot s few more animals for the museum. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/189 "2017-08-28T14:15:08Z")
> [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > What about the calls to remove the statue of Theodore Roosevelt from outside the Museum of Natural History? Calls to remove this statue aren’t calls to remove all Teddy Roosevelt statues. They are calls to remove this particular statue because one does not have to try very hard to come to the conclusion that this particular statue is racist as hell. Noble TR mounted on a horse in his cavalry uniform is flanked on either side by a shirtless native American and a shirtless African American well beneath TR because they are on foot. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/190 "2017-08-28T15:10:31Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > This is the least slippery slope of all time. “If we take down the statues of slavers, next they’ll take down the statues of pirates!” Actually, the slippery slope argument is right there in your comment - “If we take down statues of slavers…”. As a couple posters after you mention, this isn’t about owning slaves, it’s about confederate solders who fought to keep slavery alive, fought against fellow Americans, and were the worst traitors of them all. No mention of just owning slaves. That part’s fine even according to some who posted here earlier in this thread their support for removing other statues and the like. if that’s not part of the metric, why bring it up? I’d suggest it’s because that’s where this debate is headed, and headed fast. > [@Kimstu](#): > > … what de Blasio has done is to announce the convening of a task force to come up with guidelines for making decisions about **all** potentially controversial NYC monuments. The Columbus Circle statue is on the review list with hundreds of others for **possible** removal, but I know of no evidence that de Blasio has stated that he **intends** to remove it. Huh? So if the review board (made up of… who?) suggests something should be removed, you think De Blasio is just going to ignore it? This is all just politics and posturing and nothing will come of it? > [@](#): > > Mayor Bill de Blasio says the city will conduct a 90-day review of “all symbols of hate” on city property following last weekend’s events in Charlottesville, Virginia. > > The mayor has already ordered the removal of a granite marker honoring Henri Philippe Pétain on the Canyon of Heroes on Morris and Broadway in Manhattan. > **[De Blasio: NYC To Review 'Symbols Of Hate' On City Property](https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/de-blasio-nyc-to-review-symbols-of-hate-on-city-property/)** > > The mayor has already ordered the removal of a granite marker honoring Henri Philippe Pétain on the Canyon of Heroes. His intent seems pretty clear to me. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/191 "2017-08-28T17:55:03Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > So if the review board (made up of… who?) suggests something should be removed, you think De Blasio is just going to ignore it? This is all just politics and posturing and nothing will come of it? > [De Blasio: NYC To Review 'Symbols Of Hate' On City Property - CBS New York](http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/08/17/de-blasio-nyc-to-review-symbols-of-hate-on-city-property/) > > His intent seems pretty clear to me. > [@](#): > > Mayor Bill de Blasio says the city will conduct a 90-day review of “all symbols of hate” on city property following last weekend’s events in Charlottesville, Virginia. > > The mayor has already ordered the removal of a granite marker honoring Henri Philippe Pétain on the Canyon of Heroes on Morris and Broadway in Manhattan. The bit that you failed to quote: > [@](#): > > Pétain was convicted of treason in connection to helping the Nazis lead thousands of the Jewish faith to their deaths. I think, like \*\*iiandyiiii \*\*said in the other thread is that the blame for that (and for the other statues to come down) has to be put on the Nazis. That also see that what the Confederacy did was an early example of what the Nazis and other right wing extremists want to do to America. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/192 "2017-08-28T18:22:45Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > … what I and others (I think) are talking about - the merits that are being used to take down (and rename, remove, etc) statues and the like are far from clear, concise, or limited. They’re all over the place and changing by the day. And you consider that a problem? Charlottesville VA decided they wanted to take down a statue of Lee: that is _Charlottesville’s concern_, not mine or yours (assuming you do not live or work there). We are not calling for some kind of federal law regarding what statues should stand and which should fall. If Browning Montana had a statue of Andrew Jackson that a predominantly NA local population objected to, the town should have the right to have the statue removed without a contingent of ardent Jackson supporters from NC marching in to strenuously object/threaten. This was the problem in Charlottesville: most of the tiki-marchers did not hail from there, they were a sort of flash-mob-like thing that arrived there to march. The removal of the statue was _none of their fucking business_. And that is how it ought to be. If the standards are all over the place, it is because there are a lot of places for the standards to be all over. As to “changing by the day”, so is the country. Which I think is also mostly a good thing. Even actual conservatives embrace change, they just prefer a steady pace. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/193 "2017-08-28T20:20:05Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Actually, the slippery slope argument is right there in your comment - “If we take down statues of slavers…”. I think you missed the point of my post entirely. My point is that I don’t give a flying fuck if they take down statues of Columbus. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/194 "2017-08-28T20:25:22Z")
Why should the statue of a cruel slave-runner and mass murderer be taken down _after_ those who merely fought for slavery/treason/whatever? ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/195 "2017-08-28T21:32:15Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > I think you missed the point of my post entirely. > > My point is that I don’t give a flying fuck if they take down statues of Columbus. I understood your point just fine. I just thought a part of it was interesting, when looking at what metrics we judge those of the past by. Is it slavery, treason, murder… > [@GIGObuster](#): > > I think, like \*\*iiandyiiii \*\*said in the other thread is that the blame for that (and for the other statues to come down) has to be put on the Nazis. That also see that what the Confederacy did was an early example of what the Nazis and other right wing extremists want to do to America. It’s about Nazis. Right. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/196 "2017-08-28T21:56:29Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > It’s about Nazis. Right. If that was for sarcasm, the reality is that: Yes there were Nazis the ones that demanded protection of the denial of history and used violence to defend that denial that those statues represent. ---
**Author:** ![Reddy\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Reddy\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reddy_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/197 "2017-08-28T22:04:31Z")
Everyone sees their side as right. Personally, I denounce, on ideological terms both Neo-Nazis, and Antifa. You don’t have to be a Nazi to hate Socialism, or to hate the Socialistic view of Western Civlization as being inherently evil. You don’t have to be an Antifa lunatic to despise Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/198 "2017-08-28T23:10:36Z")
Just being a sane person is enough reason to despise nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Reddy\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Reddy\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reddy_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/199 "2017-08-28T23:15:43Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Just being a sane person is enough reason to despise nazis. Yes, but my point was you can be anti-Nazi, and yet also accept that Antifa aren’t good guys just because they’re your enemy’s enemy. Antifa should be deconstructed and discussed for what they really are after the Nazis have retreated from public light. The Nazis are more morally repugnant, obviously, but Antifa is no bed of roses in their own way. I dislike extremist movements, and both are, just in different ways. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/200 "2017-08-29T00:04:53Z")
> [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > Yes, but my point was you can be anti-Nazi, and yet also accept that Antifa aren’t good guys just because they’re your enemy’s enemy. Antifa should be deconstructed and discussed for what they really are after the Nazis have retreated from public light. The time to wait is now! Seriously, how is the presence of the alt-white a hindrance? Tell us about Antifa straight away. There are plenty of sources – most of them have one bias or another, but surely you can extract the factual morsels from the invective. Go for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636.md?page=11)