# Suddenly these Statues offend people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2017, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636 "2017-08-25T11:07:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/81 "2017-08-26T09:41:33Z")
It’s so simple that a first grader could grasp it. Confederacy\>Treason\>No Monuments on _American_ soil. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/82 "2017-08-26T09:57:47Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > **ESPN Pulls Announcer Robert Lee From Virginia Game Because of His Name** > [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/23/business/media/robert-lee-university-virginia-charlottesville.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/23/business/media/robert-lee-university-virginia-charlottesville.html) In an internal message to employees that the network released to media Wednesday evening, ESPN President John Skipper said: “There was never any concern — by anyone, at any level — that Robert Lee’s name would offend anyone watching the Charlottesville game. Among our Charlotte production staff there was a question as to whether — in these divisive times — Robert’s assignment might create a distraction, or even worse, expose him to social hectoring and trolling. “Since Robert was their primary concern, they consulted with him directly. He expressed some personal trepidation about the assignment and, when offered the chance to do the Youngstown State-Pitt game instead, opted for that game — in part because he lives in Albany (N.Y.) and would be able to get home to his family on Saturday evening.” [source](http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/ct-robert-lee-espn-college-football-20170823-story.html) This doesn’t sound nutty or crazy extreme to me. It’s not that big of a deal. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/83 "2017-08-26T11:46:08Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Why should there be statues of Washington? Don’t ask us; _tell_ us. You have a position on this, right? You believe there should, or shouldn’t, be statues of the guy? If you believe statues of Washington should dot the landscape, just point out why. If you believe there shouldn’t, then make that argument instead. If you say some grand things about Washington, I’ll then say _well, even though he also did some things we should speak out against – yeah, okay, he did some pretty cool stuff, and so cue the statue._ By contrast, if you want to make a case for Lee getting a statue – what, exactly, will you mention? He fought to keep slavery going longer? He committed if-it-prospers-none-dare-call-it-treason, and _lost?_ That isn’t statue-worthy stuff that might outweigh what we should speak out against; it just _is_ the stuff we should speak out against! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/84 "2017-08-26T11:50:41Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > That’s putting an awful lot of words into my mouth and intent into things I haven’t said or believe… “wrong for German to remove Nazi monuments”? No. “You’re saying that it’s never okay to remove a statue”? Um, no again. > > I don’t have a “problem” with Germany doing anything or our doing anything with Lee, the confederate flag, or even Columbus for the matter. > > It just seems so… revisionist? That’s not it. Idealist? Well no, not really. I honestly don’t know what it is, but it’s something. > > My brother has grown to despise my grandparents because in todays world they’d be considered embarrassingly, cringeworthly, racist. I agree. But I don’t take it so far as he does where he wants to erase their memory, who they were, and what they were to our family as it is today - positive morals, ideals passed down, etc… He wishes they were never born, and holds them in contempt and utter disrespect. > > I on the other hand look at it in the time that it was. I can overlook that part or put it in a context that I don’t have to pass judgement on them back then with todays standards. It’ more to friends, family, 'Do you believe how they talked, how they felt? How completely backward that was? I really wonder what my grandchildren someday will say, or the grandchildren of them, are going to say about me and how awful a person I and the society I lived/live in now, were… a hundred years down the road. > > I would hope, as I do with generations past and things done then, to put it into the context of the time and place, and hold off making judgements about the people and the things done then based on things known and done now. > > Learning by observing and acknowledging bad and good, not erasing and rewriting things to only be ‘good’. > > I hope but doubt that will make much sense. I have a hard time making sense and coming to the black and white conclusions and declarations that others so (apparently) easily do. And how far they’re willing to take it. This is all fine, and doesn’t conflict with removing statues because we believe they send the wrong message today. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/85 "2017-08-26T11:53:12Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > That without a clear line on how we’re going about this, and what kind of standards we are setting and adhering to, I don’t see where it stops until a preponderance of our history is either removed or deleted. > > Kind of a hu-hum mild drone of an argument, but one I think is more of an issue than which particular statues/etc are being removed. That is where are the brakes on this thing. Or are any needed. But status have always been moved, altered, or removed, whether for philosophical reasons or practical reasons. And they always will be. There’s nothing new about this discussion and about removing statues. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/86 "2017-08-26T12:23:56Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > So, because a broadcaster made the somewhat silly decision to not use an announcer for one game we’ve gone too far and must then keep these statues up? How is that not a slippery slope? > > Also, you do understand that removing a statue isn’t the same thing as deleting history, right? Many former Soviet bloc countries took down statues of Lenin, but we are still aware that Lenin existed. But statues of Stalin are still everywhere, and more popular than ever. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/87 "2017-08-26T12:34:56Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > But statues of Stalin are still everywhere, and more popular than ever. Where did you hear this? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/88 "2017-08-26T12:38:56Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > That without a clear line on how we’re going about this, and what kind of standards we are setting and adhering to, I don’t see where it stops until a preponderance of our history is either removed or deleted. What exactly do you mean by “removing or deleting history”? How does one remove or delete history? Who right now is advocating doing something that results in removing or deleting history? What happens when you remove or delete history in that way? ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/89 "2017-08-26T12:39:10Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > I guess my problem (and I wouldn’t go so far as calling it a problem so much as a… wonder?) > > So just wondering… Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, get rid of those monuments/statues too? > > You could kind of get to a point where you don’t have anyone from the past on anything at all. Money. Monuments. Portraits. Since something from the past could be brought up against pretty much any and all of them. ^^^ Nails it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/90 "2017-08-26T12:41:36Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > ^^^ Nails it. Not even if his are the only posts that you pay attention to in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/91 "2017-08-26T12:42:22Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > But statues of Stalin are still everywhere, and more popular than ever. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/92 "2017-08-26T12:42:41Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > ^^^ Nails it. Nails what exactly? What exactly is the problem being identified? As our society grows and changes, doesn’t it make sense that we will feel differently about who—if anyone—and for what reasons we honor _now_ with public monuments and portraits on money? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/93 "2017-08-26T12:45:58Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > ^^^ Nails it. …no, it doesn’t. I asked you, back on Page One, whether _you_ believe Jefferson and Washington should lose the ‘monument’ treatment, and why. I asked you because you raised that point. For some reason, you didn’t answer then. Will you answer now? ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/94 "2017-08-26T13:04:26Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > ^^^ Nails it. Yeah, it totally shows how dumb that argument is. None of those are guilty of treason against the nation, so they’re not likely to be removed from anything. Seriously, if your other figures aren’t guilty of the same crime, you’re showing that you don’t understand the argument, or wish it was about something other than your pet hero committing treason and losing. No one with half a brain cell is going to buy your slippery slope argument, and anyone who trots such a stupid argument out should feel bad for wasting other’s time. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/95 "2017-08-26T13:09:52Z")
Every man does some things that are good, some things that are evil, and some that aren’t particularly either, or are a mix of good and evil. Some do more good or evil than others, but everyone does some. Some men do great things, and they’re the ones who get mentioned in the history books. Like all the other things we do, those great things can be good, evil, or somewhere in between. The great things that Robert E. Lee did were all, every last one of them, evil. We should not be putting up statues celebrating great evil. I’m sure he did some good things as well, but none of those good things were great. Ironically, of the good things he did, the closest any of them came to great was… saying that we shouldn’t put up statues of him. By contrast, the great things that Washington and Jefferson did were mostly good. They created a new nation, based on good principles, of a sort for which at the time there was little or no precedent. That deserves celebration. They also, like all men, did evil things, but those evil things are not what got them into the history books, and not why we remember them. Columbus falls somewhere in between. He did one great thing, and that great thing wasn’t inherently good or evil itself, and led to both good and evil outcomes. But to the extent that he personally was involved in those outcomes, it was mostly the evil ones. We probably ought to take down his statues, but it’s not as clear-cut as it is for Lee, and there’s some room for debate. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/96 "2017-08-26T13:22:47Z")
What was the one great deed of Columbus? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/97 "2017-08-26T14:25:24Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Your whole post is [checks forum] a self-serving mess. The two paragraphs I quoted are the heart of it, tho. > > Treason was wrong then, and it’s wrong now. The people who committed treason knew they were committing treason. There’s no “new light” that we are seeing these treasonous jerkwads in: they’ve always been (and been known as) treasonous. > > To suggest otherwise is revisionist or idealist or “something” AND THAT SHOULD BE OBVIOUS TO ANYONE AND EVERYONE. You understand that our nation was founded on treason, right? Its enough to say the Confederates were racist. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/98 "2017-08-26T14:27:52Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > You understand that our nation was founded on treason, right? Its enough to say the Confederates were racist. It wasn’t founded on treason against the US. Treason against the US is pretty damn different than treason _for_ the (fledgling) US. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/99 "2017-08-26T14:34:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It wasn’t founded on treason against the US. Treason against the US is pretty damn different than treason _for_ the (fledgling) US. We were British…not American…and did exactly what the Confederates did. They used the original Revolution as justification to revolt themselves. The treason argument is a non-starter. We should stick to the racist argument because its morally much stronger. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/100 "2017-08-26T14:37:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Where did you hear this? > **[Opinion | Stalin, Russia’s New Hero (Published 2016)](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/13/opinion/sunday/stalinist-nostalgia-in-vladimir-putins-russia.html)** > > The gulag is a distant memory. In today’s Russia, people pine for an era of order and superpower status. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636.md?page=6)