# Suddenly these Statues offend people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2017, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636 "2017-08-25T11:07:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/101 "2017-08-26T14:48:51Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > We were British…not American…and did exactly what the Confederates did. They used the original Revolution as justification to revolt themselves. The treason argument is a non-starter. This is a silly argument. It doesn’t matter to us that Washington, etc., betrayed the British, because our entire country is premised on the values inherent in that betrayal. That betrayal is something we value. It was an act in support of (some of) our values and our independence. That it constitutes treason against a state that we no longer belong to doesn’t matter. The betrayal of Robert E. Lee is betrayal against _us_, the state we belong to, and against the values we hold. That to a third party, they both look like acts of betrayal against _someone_ doesn’t make them morally equivalent _to us_. That Washington was a traitor to the British doesn’t matter _to us_. Lee was a traitor _to us_. That’s why it doesn’t make sense for _us_ to erect statues honoring them. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/102 "2017-08-26T14:56:56Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This is a silly argument. It doesn’t matter to us that Washington, etc., betrayed the British, because our entire country is premised on the values inherent in that betrayal. That betrayal is something we value. It was an act in support of (some of) our values and our independence. That it constitutes treason against a state that we no longer belong to doesn’t matter. > > The betrayal of Robert E. Lee is betrayal against _us_, the state we belong to, and against the values we hold. > > That to a third party, they both look like acts of betrayal against _someone_ doesn’t make them morally equivalent _to us_. That Washington was a traitor to the British doesn’t matter _to us_. Lee was a traitor _to us_. That’s why it doesn’t make sense for _us_ to erect statues honoring them. I never argued that we should have Confederate statues. I’m simply reminding those that scream treason that our nation was born of treason. And British values were fairly the same as ours. Are the supporters of California separation traitors? Again, sticking to their racism and support of slavery is a much stronger argument imo. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/103 "2017-08-26T14:59:53Z")
I’m all in favor of treason, when that treason is committed for the purpose of goals I agree with. In fact, I don’t even consider it treason. For example, I would have been quite happy to support Germans who committed treason against the Nazi state, or French people who committed treason against the Vichy regime. I don’t define that as treason or them as traitors, because they were not betraying _me_, _my country_, or _my values_. Washington is not a traitor to me, because he didn’t betray _me_. Lee is a traitor to me, because he betrayed _me_. That’s a very good reason to take down any memorials to Lee put up on my behalf with the sanction of my government, whether or not Lee had any personally objectionable traits. When I say that the government shouldn’t be honoring traitors, that doesn’t mean just anyone who can be defined as a traitor from any random point of view. It means traitors to _this_ government, _this_ country, and _our_ values. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/104 "2017-08-26T15:03:05Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > I’m simply reminding those that scream treason that our nation was born of treason. And I’m telling you why that’s an irrelevant fact to be reminded of. > [@](#): > > And British values were fairly the same as ours. This is so silly, I’m not even going to respond to it. > [@](#): > > Are the supporters of California separation traitors? If they take up arms to fight a war against the government in order to separate California, then, yes, they are traitors. ---
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/105 "2017-08-26T15:35:51Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Washington is not a traitor to me, because he didn’t betray _me_. Lee is a traitor to me, because he betrayed _me_. That’s a very good reason to take down any memorials to Lee put up on my behalf with the sanction of my government, whether or not Lee had any personally objectionable traits. For Washington and Lee individually, it also helps distinguish the two that Washington was an officer in the Virginia militia before becoming commander of the Continental Army. He wasn’t an officer of the British Army, though earlier he had wanted to be so and was denied this opportunity at least partially due to his Colonial heritage and circumstances. It is unclear whether Washington had to take any kind of oath specifically towards the British crown in order to serve in his capacity. Lee was an officer in the United States Army. We know [the oath](http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a24208/what-an-oath-means/) that he swore and all other officers swore when they graduated West Point in the early 1800s: > [@West Point oath of 1836](#): > > “I, \_\_\_\_\_, appointed a \_\_\_\_\_ in the Army of the United States, do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the rules and articles for the government of the Armies of the United States.” The primary focus and allegiance of Washington just prior to the Revolution was to serve and defend Virginia. The primary focus and allegiance of Lee just prior to the Civil War was to serve and defend the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Ellecram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellecram/32/18948_2.png) [@Ellecram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellecram)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/106 "2017-08-26T18:26:20Z")
Maybe someday we won’t use statues in the same way we do now. I think that is one of the evolutionary forks we might come upon as we as a society question the relevance of the ones we have already put up. Maybe we will establish collective honor with holograms or something else not yet invented. I can’t help but think of what happens to all of them eventually anyways: And on the pedestal these words appear: ‘My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!’ Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away. Percy Bysshe Shelley ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/107 "2017-08-26T18:47:56Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > You understand that our nation was founded on treason, right? Its enough to say the Confederates were racist. No, it isn’t enough to say the Confederates were racist. They were, but the reason we should not have monuments to them is because of their treason. Had Robert E. Lee not committed treason, I doubt anyone would be erecting a statue of him. I’m pretty sure that’s why there are no statues of Washington or Jefferson or Franklin in the United Kingdom: they were on the other side. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/108 "2017-08-26T19:46:50Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, it isn’t enough to say the Confederates were racist. They were, but the reason we should not have monuments to them is because of their treason. Had Robert E. Lee not committed treason, I doubt anyone would be erecting a statue of him. I’m pretty sure that’s why there are no statues of Washington or Jefferson or Franklin in the United Kingdom: they were on the other side. Actually, there _is_ a [statue of George Washington in the United Kingdom](https://www.londonremembers.com/memorials/george-washington) (in Trafalgar Square). I agree that the “treason!” argument is not the strongest argument against Confederate memorials. The British were ultimately willing to honor George Washington even though he committed treason against the British crown, because he committed treason on behalf of a revolution whose principles most people in the UK would probably now support. (“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…”) By contrast, Robert E. Lee _et al._ committed treason not on behalf of a noble cause–American independence and the principles of democratic self-government, or [defeating Nazism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_July_plot), or [resisting Soviet domination of Eastern Europe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryszard_Kukli%C5%84ski)–but on behalf of [the cause of perpetuating slavery and white supremacy](http://www.confederate-cause.com/). And of course Robert E. Lee and his fellow Confederate statesmen and generals are not being memorialized _in spite of_ having committed treason on behalf of the cause of perpetuating slavery and white supremacy, but precisely _because of_ their having committed treason on behalf of the cause of perpetuating slavery and white supremacy (although supporters of the “Lost Cause” mythology have long tried to deny that truth). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/109 "2017-08-26T20:36:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What was the one great deed of Columbus? Discovered the Americas and got the whole European colonization thing going? I mean, sure, if he hadn’t done it, somebody else probably would have headed west and said, “Hey, there are two new continents here we can take over and settle!”, but, still, he’s the one who did it. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/110 "2017-08-26T20:39:56Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, it isn’t enough to say the Confederates were racist. They were, but the reason we should not have monuments to them is because of their treason. Had Robert E. Lee not committed treason, I doubt anyone would be erecting a statue of him. I’m pretty sure that’s why there are no statues of Washington or Jefferson or Franklin in the United Kingdom: they were on the other side. This is looking back and judging by the standards of our time. We think ourselves as Americans first (and for a lot of us exclusively), but before the Civil War that wasn’t necessarily true. For Lee, clearly it wasn’t. He thought of himself as a Virginian first and, through that allegiance, an American second. Either way he went he was going to be a traitor to the other side. From a democratic perspective, the voters of Virginia clearly wanted to leave the Union. A majority of them voted for secession in a referendum. That stands in stark contrast to the election of 1860 where Lincoln got all of 1% of the vote. I’m happy that the USA stayed together, but I can recognize why Virginians (and others in the south) would fight for secession. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/111 "2017-08-26T20:51:51Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Actually, there _is_ a [statue of George Washington in the United Kingdom](https://www.londonremembers.com/memorials/george-washington) (in Trafalgar Square). Thank you for your correction of my flippant remark. I appreciate the clarification. > [@MEBuckner](#): > > I agree that the “treason!” argument is not the strongest argument against Confederate memorials. Then you aren’t replying to me; why did you quote me? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/112 "2017-08-26T20:55:05Z")
> [@treis](#): > > This is looking back and judging by the standards of our time. Which is exactly what we should be doing when we keep a monument to an individual person in a place of honor or reverence in our time. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/113 "2017-08-26T20:55:42Z")
> [@treis](#): > > This is looking back and judging by the standards of our time. So what? > [@treis](#): > > We think ourselves as Americans first (and for a lot of us exclusively), but before the Civil War that wasn’t necessarily true. For Lee, clearly it wasn’t. He thought of himself as a Virginian first and, through that allegiance, an American second. Either way he went he was going to be a traitor to the other side. So what? He had to choose a side, and he chose the side that lost. AND they were a bunch of shitty people with shitty ideals and morals he chose to side with. So fuck him and the choices he made. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/114 "2017-08-26T20:57:07Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Then you aren’t replying to me; why did you quote me? Well, I quoted you to point out that your flippant remark was not correct. (It’s just a factual nit-pick; you know how irresistible those are around here.) The rest of my post was more a general weighing-in on the topic. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/115 "2017-08-26T21:04:11Z")
> [@treis](#): > > This is looking back and judging by the standards of our time. We think ourselves as Americans first (and for a lot of us exclusively), but before the Civil War that wasn’t necessarily true. For Lee, clearly it wasn’t. He thought of himself as a Virginian first and, through that allegiance, an American second. Either way he went he was going to be a traitor to the other side. [But he only swore an oath to protect only one of those sides.](http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a24208/what-an-oath-means/) ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/116 "2017-08-26T21:06:18Z")
> [@treis](#): > > This is looking back and judging by the standards of our time. We think ourselves as Americans first (and for a lot of us exclusively), but before the Civil War that wasn’t necessarily true. For Lee, clearly it wasn’t. He thought of himself as a Virginian first and, through that allegiance, an American second. Either way he went he was going to be a traitor to the other side. [QUOTE=US Army Officer’s Oath] “I, \_\_\_\_\_, appointed a \_\_\_\_\_ in the Army of the United States, do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the rules and articles for the government of the Armies of the United States.” [/quote] As an officer in the US Army, he took an oath to serve the United States, to obey the orders of the President of the US, and to follow the rules and articles for the US Army. Any traitor can ‘think of himself’ as something not a traitor, but the fact his that he betrayed the United States under its laws at the time, and violated his oath as an officer in the US Army. The notion that he wasn’t really a traitor because of ‘states rights first’ or some other theory doesn’t pass legal or ethical muster, when he levied war against the United States and forswore his oath to the United States. > [@](#): > > From a democratic perspective, the voters of Virginia clearly wanted to leave the Union. A majority of them voted for secession in a referendum. No, this is complete bullshit. 0% of the slaves in Virginia voted to secede. If you want to use ‘a democratic perspective’, then none of Virginia’s votes count because they had a large slave population who wasn’t allowed to vote. If you want to say “well, really they’re a democratic republic so were following the laws at the time” then you have to acknowledge that they were breaking the law by seizing Federal property, defying legal federal instructions, and firing on federal troops. Either way, they don’t get a pass - you can’t just pick and choose to use ‘democratic principle, but blacks don’t count’ or ‘well they followed the law, except the ones they broke don’t count’. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/117 "2017-08-26T21:14:58Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’m all in favor of treason, when that treason is committed for the purpose of goals I agree with. In fact, I don’t even consider it treason. For example, I would have been quite happy to support Germans who committed treason against the Nazi state, or French people who committed treason against the Vichy regime. I don’t define that as treason or them as traitors, because they were not betraying _me_, _my country_, or _my values_. > > Washington is not a traitor to me, because he didn’t betray _me_. Lee is a traitor to me, because he betrayed _me_. That’s a very good reason to take down any memorials to Lee put up on my behalf with the sanction of my government, whether or not Lee had any personally objectionable traits. > > When I say that the government shouldn’t be honoring traitors, that doesn’t mean just anyone who can be defined as a traitor from any random point of view. It means traitors to _this_ government, _this_ country, and _our_ values. So, are the leftists in California calling for secession “traitors”? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/118 "2017-08-26T21:21:04Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > So, are the leftists in California calling for secession “traitors”? Have they taken up arms against the government in order to separate California from the country? Are any of them doing it in support of a cause that is abhorrent to our ideals? Is any government body proposing to honor one of them with a public monument? In other words, is there any reason I should care to determine whether they are traitors? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/119 "2017-08-26T21:37:16Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Which is exactly what we should be doing when we keep a monument to an individual person in a place of honor or reverence in our time. > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > So what? He had to choose a side, and he chose the side that lost. AND they were a bunch of shitty people with shitty ideals and morals he chose to side with. So fuck him and the choices he made. So, make your argument that he was a shitty person with shitty ideals instead of that he was a traitor and you will have no quibble from me. > [@Pantastic](#): > > As an officer in the US Army, he took an oath to serve the United States, to obey the orders of the President of the US, and to follow the rules and articles for the US Army. Any traitor can ‘think of himself’ as something not a traitor, but the fact his that he betrayed the United States under its laws at the time, and violated his oath as an officer in the US Army. The notion that he wasn’t really a traitor because of ‘states rights first’ or some other theory doesn’t pass legal or ethical muster, when he levied war against the United States and forswore his oath to the United States. I believe that he resigned his commission and was no longer an officer in the US army. > [@Pantastic](#): > > From a democratic perspective, the voters of Virginia clearly wanted to leave the Union. A majority of them voted for secession in a referendum. > No, this is complete bullshit. 0% of the slaves in Virginia voted to secede. If you want to use ‘a democratic perspective’, then none of Virginia’s votes count because they had a large slave population who wasn’t allowed to vote. If you want to say “well, really they’re a democratic republic so were following the laws at the time” then you have to acknowledge that they were breaking the law by seizing Federal property, defying legal federal instructions, and firing on federal troops. Either way, they don’t get a pass - you can’t just pick and choose to use ‘democratic principle, but blacks don’t count’ or ‘well they followed the law, except the ones they broke don’t count’. Again, you are using modern sensibilities to judge the past. If we are going to say that Virginia was undemocratic because slaves couldn’t vote, then the entire country was undemocratic because women couldn’t vote either. You have to judge actions in the context of their time. To Lee’s understanding, his home state democratically voted to leave. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/120 "2017-08-26T21:46:52Z")
> [@treis](#): > > From a democratic perspective, the voters of Virginia clearly wanted to leave the Union. A majority of them voted for secession in a referendum. That stands in stark contrast to the election of 1860 where Lincoln got all of 1% of the vote. I’m happy that the USA stayed together, but I can recognize why Virginians (and others in the south) would fight for secession. From a democratic perspective, slave societies aren’t democratic in any but the most ridiculous sense of the word. We don’t know if the majority of the South really wanted to secede, since millions of southerners (a huge percentage) were in bondage and couldn’t make their voices known. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636.md?page=7)