Suddenly these Statues offend people?

[Acsenray]

@Kimstu

:dubious: For so

When other people are unfairly disadvantaged, you’re all “Oh well, too bad, morality is arbitrary and unscientific anyway”, but if you might be unfairly disadvantaged, you’re all “HOW DARE YOU!!”

This pretty much sums it up.

[Gyrate]

@Kimstu

So what? According to you, all that faff about responsibility and fairness and morality is arbitrary, subjective, not based on scientific fact.

So why should anybody care whether you think you have responsibility or not? Why should anybody care whether you think you’re being treated unfairly or immorally? It’s all subjective and there’s no science supporting your claims anyway.

You have completely kicked out all the supports, such as they were, from underneath your previous appeals to any kind of principled position in favor of justice or fairness.

In which case we are no longer obligated to care whether or not he’s fairly treated when Our New Minority Overlords take over. Really, I appreciate his candor - it really takes the pressure off.

[Reddy_Mercury]

@Kimstu

So what? According to you, all that faff about responsibility and fairness and morality is arbitrary, subjective, not based on scientific fact.

So why should anybody care whether you think you have responsibility or not? Why should anybody care whether you think you’re being treated unfairly or immorally? It’s all subjective and there’s no science supporting your claims anyway.

You have completely kicked out all the supports, such as they were, from underneath your previous appeals to any kind of principled position in favor of justice or fairness.

Is there any court of law which is measuring these matters? I think not.
There will come a time when hefty taxes are measured on people who look like me, because they look like me; and when land is redistributed in vengeful fashion as in South Africa. But that time is not now; and hopefully, it won’t happen during the course of my life. What happens after I’m gone is obviously not my concern. As stated, my concerns are with the microevents which make up my little sphere of influence.

Ultimately, I do not need supports. This is not a trial.

[Reddy_Mercury]

@Gyrate

In which case we are no longer obligated to care whether or not he’s fairly treated when Our New Minority Overlords take over. Really, I appreciate his candor - it really takes the pressure off.

It’s quite clear you are itching, waiting with bated breath, for the days when others who look like me won’t be treated fairly. When you can reveal your true self without worrying about the law and drop all pretense. So I appreciate your candor as well.

[Chronos]

No, we’re itching for the days when people who look like you are treated fairly. That’s the thing about fairness: You can’t measure fairness to any single party in isolation. If one party is treated unfairly, then so is the other, and so fairness to any one group means fairness to all.

[iiandyiiii]

@Reddy_Mercury

There will come a time when hefty taxes are measured on people who look like me, because they look like me; and when land is redistributed in vengeful fashion as in South Africa. But that time is not now; and hopefully, it won’t happen during the course of my life. What happens after I’m gone is obviously not my concern. As stated, my concerns are with the microevents which make up my little sphere of influence.

Looking on American history, it’s far more likely that there will come a time when non-white people are lynched, or prevented from voting (which still happens to some degree), or mistreated by police more often (ditto), etc. I’m much more worried about things that have happened for centuries and in some cases are still happening than white genocide fantasies.

[Kimstu]

@Reddy_Mercury

And I am expected to accept responsibility for the evils of other men, when I in my own life have done nothing wrong to anyone who is non-white. I am expected to bend the knee and humbly apologize for other people’s brutality. Why should I? It was not me, nor was it even literally my family. Why should I apologize or feel ashamed for the actions of dead WASPS who I had nothing to do with, genetically or otherwise? […]

What I am opposed to is paying for the sins of others. […]

It is unfair that I catch flak for things I didn’t do. […]

It is not justice to judge an entire race guilty of some original sin. […]

[…] others who look like me won’t be treated fairly.

In other words, unfairness (to you and those who look like you) is a bad thing and must be vehemently resisted.

@Reddy_Mercury

All these other things are moralism and philosophy, arbitrary. None of it has any basis in scientific fact. Injustice is a sad thing on a moral level. But morality is on the whole subjective. […] There is no science in this. There is only choice. The universe, to quote a more eloquent man, is indifferent.

It’s sad, but life’s a genetic lottery. […] We all get fucked in some way.

In other words, unfairness (to other people) is kinda sad but inevitable and not really a big deal because it’s all arbitrary anyway.

[Gyrate]

@Reddy_Mercury

It’s quite clear you are itching, waiting with bated breath, for the days when others who look like me won’t be treated fairly. When you can reveal your true self without worrying about the law and drop all pretense. So I appreciate your candor as well.

Once again you are interpreting posts through the heavy filter of your own anxieties.

As it happens, I’m a middle-class white guy from the suburbs. I am not “itching, waiting with bated breath, for the days when others who look like [you] won’t be treated fairly” since we presumably look broadly alike in the important respects. What I am doing is saying that 1) those days are not coming, 2) your repeated assertions that they are coming are utterly groundless, and 3) having debunked or seen debunked those assertions multiple times in this thread without effect, I might as well just give up and mock you for being both ridiculous and for fundamentally supporting bigotry.

The concern that “X will treat me the way that I treat X” is certainly something I’ve heard many times before, and yet it remains a fantasy driven by fear and projection. Please try to calm down. The “Rise of the Planet of the Gays/Blacks/Feminists” will not come to pass in either of our lifetimes.

[k9bfriender]

@Gyrate

The concern that “X will treat me the way that I treat X” is certainly something I’ve heard many times before, and yet it remains a fantasy driven by fear and projection. Please try to calm down. The “Rise of the Planet of the Gays/Blacks/Feminists” will not come to pass in either of our lifetimes.

If you are of the concern that “X will treat me the way that I treat X”, then it seems as though treating X the way you would like to be treated is the best solution.

[elucidator]

We should take a moment here to grieve for the dreadful injustices inflicted upon white people in America! One Mississippi, two Mississippi…OK, that’ll do it.

[Gyrate]

@k9bfriender

If you are of the concern that “X will treat me the way that I treat X”, then it seems as though treating X the way you would like to be treated is the best solution.

Also, you know, that whole Golden Rule/Jesus/karma/etc thing.

[madmonk28]

@Reddy_Mercury

It’s quite clear you are itching, waiting with bated breath, for the days when others who look like me won’t be treated fairly. When you can reveal your true self without worrying about the law and drop all pretense. So I appreciate your candor as well.

I am BEGGING you, please put this all in context of the confederate statues. You’re going to being paying a whitey tax and that’s why you favor taking down the statues because…?

[HumbleThinker]

@Reddy_Mercury

The entirety of human history is the story of one group of people oppressing another to get to the proverbial head of the line. Before it became a racial issue, it was a cultural issue issue (IE the Romans oppressing the ‘savage’ Germans); before that a territorial issue, before that a tribal issue. Like war, one group oppressing another has been with the human race from the beginning. It’s one of our less admirable traits, but it’s been a constant throughout history. Why should now be any different?

History only looks that way if you look at history from a 100,000 km view and quite selectively.

[Acsenray]

You really believe no human society has ever become fairer and more just from one time to another?

Frankly, I don’t think you really believe that. I think you’re just looking for a self-serving way to deny any moral obligation to care about injustice or unfairness based solely on your perception that it might possibly disadvantage you personally.

[Leaper]

Why the hell do people keep saying “I don’t hate you, I just don’t care about you or what happens to you” with such a sense of smug moral self satisfaction? Do they really think there’s that big a gap between that and being outright racist?

[not_what_you_d_expect]

@Reddy_Mercury

Like I said, “This country was essentially founded upon a Faustian bargain with the Devil. At this point, the virus has so infected the body that there are deep hatreds, unparalleled polarization, and mutual distrust that will take generations to fade. This virus is combined with humanity’s history of oppressing one another. To deal with these issues now, due to the hatreds and resentments means that equality will have to be forced, where one group usurps another’s place at the head of the table. Someone will have to pay, whether it be in the form of reparations or things like Affirmative Action being put into practice more. Where I draw the line is I do not want to be the one to pay. I wash my hands because I do not view myself as having responsibility. I have “unearned advantages”, I won’t deny that. But I pay for for my unearned advantages by obeying the law, being respectful to my betters, and treating each man and woman like I would want to be treated.”

Your betters? (see the part I bolded above)

Do you mind explaining who you consider to be your betters? Thanks in advance.

[Chronos]

Quoth elucidator:

We should take a moment here to grieve for the dreadful injustices inflicted upon white people in America! One Mississippi, two Mississippi…OK, that’ll do it.

Good lord, man, one Mississippi is already more than enough, especially when we’ve also got one Alabama, one Arkansas, and one Texas.

[foolsguinea]

@eschereal

The original states entered into a mutual contract with their ratification of the Constitution; subsequent states petitioned for admission and were approved by Congress. For at least the latter, they might be able to secede, but it could not possibly be a unilateral act: Congress would have to approve the secession just as it approved the admission. For the former, I believe the same would hold true, since the Constitution was a mutual agreement. In other words, a state may not say “I’m leaving now” without getting an affirmative response to “May I be excused?” This is not codified because the concept is self-evident. Dixie left without permission and then started throwing shit at the Union. What more do you need?

And how is that a “very clear law”?

The USA lacks a clear mechanism for secession. It in fact lacks* any *mechanism for secession. What were South Carolina and Mississippi supposed to do, if they wanted to secede, other than what they did? Ask permission? And if Congress said no, because the North wanted no trade barriers between their textile mills and the cotton plantations?

[foolsguinea]

Reading the conversation with Reddy Mercury, I’m reminded of nurses and EMT’s who hold certain patients in contempt. Some assume or pretend black people have a higher pain tolerance. Some mock trans* patients. Don’t be that person.

[DrFidelius]

@not_what_you_d_expect

Your betters? (see the part I bolded above)

Do you mind explaining who you consider to be your betters? Thanks in advance.

That is a very telling turn of phrase.

If he honestly believes that showing respect to his “betters” that shows that he has been taught that he has “betters” and that people who don’t show such respect to their “betters” and bad people.

Try showing respect for all and recognize that all persons are created equal.