# Suggestion that women moderate drinking to avoid getting assaulted met with extreme outrage - Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 24, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156 "2013-10-24T20:04:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/201 "2013-10-29T06:43:47Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > I would like to state for the record that I find any suggestion that mine or anyone else’s vagina should be or will be considered public property fit for the taking should alcohol pass our lips to be repugnant, and anyone who advances such a view is repugnant and ought to think over their lives and beliefs. Indeed. Why, anyone who said such a thing would be truly horrifying. (“Public property.” Who the heck would advance such an idea? Point him out for me; where, exactly, is my opposite?) > [@](#): > > After awhile, it comes across as less like well-meaning advice and more like heavy-handed judgment; “do this, or you’ll suffer the consequences, and you’ll deserve what you get, and I won’t feel sorry for you at all.” Again – wow, the very idea of someone thinking you’d deserve what you get is abhorrent. What kind of monster would believe such a thing? Then again, maybe you’re just bad at reading signals? Like, reeeeeally bad at reading signals? Like, maybe not a single person in this thread was implying what you’re inferring, and you simply can’t accept that “no” means “no” in the face of explicit protestations? ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/202 "2013-10-29T08:15:48Z")
Wait a minute-you wrote this: > [@astro](#): > > Her advice seems common-sensical… And then you had to ask this??? > [@astro](#): > > …why the extreme reactions? She’s bloody well fortunate that she wasn’t crucified. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/203 "2013-10-29T08:41:00Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > The point of my story is that a woman may be attacked, at any time, drunk or not, at a party or not, while going about her daily activities that are neccesary to survival (such as leaving work). All the well-meaning advice in the world is not going to keep me safe, because its not realistic – I can’t live my life confined to a tower with a chastity belt on. I have to go out into the world. Keep in mind that for the most part I’m on your side, but the way you’re trying to spin this is silly. You’re acting like any advice is useless if it doesn’t take the chance of being raped down to 0%. Of course no matter what you do you’ll always be in some danger. Risk minimization is still a thing. Just because something **can** happen without me taking certain actions doesn’t mean that taking those actions can’t make it more likely. Waiting until the light is red before I cross the street may not protect me because somebody may run the light, but that doesn’t mean it’s just as unsafe as just crossing the street whenever I feel like it. I agree that the advice is silly, especially since because most women know it already, but let’s not act like risk minimization makes no sense when the minimum isn’t 0. There’s a fine line that differs from person to person that separates “paranoid”, “safe”, and “reckless”. Each person has to determine when they’re going to take risky activities for themselves, whether that means locking themselves in a tower with a chastity belt or getting shitfaced in a group of known sex offenders (and anything in between) enhances their life the most is a call they can make for themselves. But it’s not like just because you **can** get assaulted just by walking down the street, that you might as well drink yourself into a stupor and go to a guy’s room alone. If you **want** to do that, hey, cool, and if something bad happens, not your fault. But at the same time, if a person is really concerned they can and should choose to take some actions and not others based on how much they like or need to do the action vs the risk of doing so. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/204 "2013-10-29T09:01:47Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > Rape of a blackout drunk person is just as bad as rape of a roofied person. Do we really need to go over this? Or is this setting up some argument of “Well, _bad girls_ get drunk/drugged. If they were _good girls_ this would never happen. Those _bad girls_ got what they deserved”? The problem with such a position is cases like [this](http://www.cotwa.info/2013/10/grand-jury-finds-no-probable-cause-of.html). In short, it’s about a pair of drunken idiots who had sex in public. In front of a crowd and at least one camera. Neither one could remember anything about it the next day. The girl was alerted to the incident only through Instagram, by which time she’d sobered up. So she made a rape compaint to the police, on the grounds that she was too drunk to consent. The story is about a Grand Jury deciding otherwise, that no crime had been commited because she was walking and talking like a soberish person, hence the crowd gathering around to watch, rather than intervening against a rapist. So charges were dropped. In a less rape-paranoid world she might have just decided not to get amnesiac drunk in future. In a more equal world, perhaps he would have made a complaint against her on the same grounds, rather than such a thing being unthinkable. As long as people keep peddling paranoia about rape, incuding the subject of this thread with their “don’t drink, you’ll get raped” posters, this is the shit that’ll keep happening. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/205 "2013-10-29T09:02:30Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The guy looking to score regardless of if he can find a willing partner is drawn to these environments like a moth to a flame. And yet again, we’re going to people who are behaving with an intention to rape, while ignoring the more common problem, which is people who are behaving with a plan and intention to have sex but end up raping because they don’t understand what real consent is. Here’s a perfect example: > [@DigitalC](#): > > I spent most of my 20s getting blackout drunk, i would lose entire hours that i would not remember the next day and do things i wouldn’t have done otherwise. And my friends always insisted i was fully active and aware, drunks yes but far different from roofied. I’m sure i had sex with equally drunk girls and i strongly feel that neither of us got raped in that situation. “Blacked out” is not the same as “passed out”. **DigitalC** “strongly feels” that he never raped anyone and wasn’t raped, but if he was blacked out drunk, how can he know that every partner was consenting? Actually consenting meaningfully, not just drunkenly going along because they were too impaired to make a proper decision? I don’t think it’s possible to know that. And there’s the problem. DigitalC wasn’t acting with intent to rape, but he very well could have. And that’s true of many people who are raping after the oft-mentioned frat parties and other “adult socializing” occasions, it’s not their intention, they’re not predators, they’re drunk, their victims are drunk, and no one should be engaging in sexual activity under those circumstances. So in addition to “don’t drink and drive” we need “don’t drink and screw” lessons, or more importantly, as I think I end up saying in every thread about rape **we need to talk meaningfully about consent, what it looks and sounds like and who can and cannot give it** and we need to start doing that with kids from the earliest ages. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/206 "2013-10-29T12:46:10Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > And yet again, we’re going to people who are behaving with an intention to rape, while ignoring the more common problem, which is people who are behaving with a plan and intention to have sex but end up raping because they don’t understand what real consent is. > > Here’s a perfect example: > > **DigitalC** “strongly feels” that he never raped anyone and wasn’t raped, but if he was blacked out drunk, how can he know that every partner was consenting? Actually consenting meaningfully, not just drunkenly going along because they were too impaired to make a proper decision? I don’t think it’s possible to know that. > > And there’s the problem. DigitalC wasn’t acting with intent to rape, but he very well could have. And that’s true of many people who are raping after the oft-mentioned frat parties and other “adult socializing” occasions, it’s not their intention, they’re not predators, they’re drunk, their victims are drunk, and no one should be engaging in sexual activity under those circumstances. > > So in addition to “don’t drink and drive” we need “don’t drink and screw” lessons, or more importantly, as I think I end up saying in every thread about rape **we need to talk meaningfully about consent, what it looks and sounds like and who can and cannot give it** and we need to start doing that with kids from the earliest ages. This is my problem with this whole conversation. I say I got black out drunk and someone claims I might have raped someone without knowing. Hello? Are drunk women the only ones not responsible for their actions while drunk? I was as capable or incapable of consent as anyone I had sex with. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/207 "2013-10-29T13:50:26Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > This is my problem with this whole conversation. I say I got black out drunk and someone claims I might have raped someone without knowing. Hello? Are drunk women the only ones not responsible for their actions while drunk? I was as capable or incapable of consent as anyone I had sex with. Hello? Are women the only ones who need to change their behavior to avoid that kind of situation? Because other than the response to the article in the OP, I don’t see any media sending the message that guys should moderate their alcohol intake so as to prevent this shit. And that’s what pisses people off about this sort of “common-sense” advice. It’s always, always, ALWAYS about how women’s behavior can and should be changed. Changing guys’ behavior? Probably not even possible, because we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas, man. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/208 "2013-10-29T13:52:28Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > I find any suggestion that mine or anyone else’s vagina should be or will be considered public property fit for the taking should alcohol pass our lips to be repugnant Since apparently no one has suggested anything remotely resembling this, it’s unclear how this statement is germane to this thread. > [@](#): > > I also feel that certain persons in this thread keep trying to derail the discussion by focusing on tangentially related things … Such as suggestions that no one has made? > [@](#): > > All the well-meaning advice in the world is not going to keep me safe, because its not realistic Recommending that you avoid getting seriously drunk is unrealistic? > [@](#): > > I can’t live my life confined to a tower with a chastity belt on. Would be a relevant point if at some point someone had suggested such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/209 "2013-10-29T13:55:55Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > Hello? Are women the only ones who need to change their behavior to avoid that kind of situation? Because other than the response to the article in the OP, I don’t see any media sending the message that guys should moderate their alcohol intake so as to prevent this shit. > > And that’s what pisses people off about this sort of “common-sense” advice. It’s always, always, ALWAYS about how women’s behavior can and should be changed. Changing guys’ behavior? Probably not even possible, because we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas, man. Of course they are. Getting drunk and getting laid is why most of the men are out there in the first place. Obviously the ones that are uncomfortable with that result are the ones who shouldn’t be doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/210 "2013-10-29T14:02:05Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Of course they are. Getting drunk and getting laid is why most of the men are out there in the first place. Obviously the ones that are uncomfortable with that result are the ones who shouldn’t be doing it. I think this sort of answers your question about why you aren’t afforded the privilege of being considered a victim of this behavior. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/211 "2013-10-29T14:09:05Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I think this sort of answers your question about why you aren’t afforded the privilege of being considered a victim of this behavior. The difference between being a rapist or a rape victim is not whether you were bothered by it. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/212 "2013-10-29T14:12:58Z")
One important difference between being a rape victim and not being a rape victim is whether or not you’re the one actually committing the assault. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/213 "2013-10-29T14:22:28Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > And yet again, we’re going to people who are behaving with an intention to rape, while ignoring the more common problem, which is people who are behaving with a plan and intention to have sex but end up raping because they don’t understand what real consent is. Can I get a cite for this idea? I haven’t seen any evidence presented for this, and I think it’s long overdue. When women talk about their own rape encounters, they usually talk about men who know damn well what they are doing, as evident from the circumstances. While I have little doubt there are lots of men who have had sex with women who never consented and didn’t really want sex, these guys aren’t on the forefront of women’s minds when they discuss their experiences. In my own experience (never been raped but I’ve been harassed/fondled), the menance is the guy who doesn’t care whether or not he has consent. Sure, these guys may play dumb and act as though it was one big ole misunderstanding. They may even rationalize their behavior by saying she really wanted it. But at the end of the day, they wanted what they wanted, and whether she wanted it too is irrelevant to them. [A common sex myth is that sexual deprivation leads men to rape.](http://www.mtsac.edu/safety/pdf/SexualAssaultViolenceAndHarassmentPolicy.pdf) The hapless fool who doesn’t know what a consenting partner looks like due to lack of experience is a call-out to this myth, IMO. If sex deprivation is correlated with rape, we should consider the possibility that its confounded by social dysfunction. A guy who has problems relating to the opposite sex (because he hates women, for instance) very well might have a hard time procuring consensual sex. Doesn’t mean the deprivation leads him to rape. (And I’m not saying you’re arguing this, but it seems folks in this thread are going overboard with certain assumptions.) ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/214 "2013-10-29T14:34:45Z")
I just came across this paper that seems quite relevant to this discussion. > [@](#): > > Key Findings > > Alcohol administration researchers have randomly assigned male participants to drink conditions prior to exposure to an acquaintance rape scenario. As compared to sober participants, **intoxicated participants find the male character’s use of force to obtain sex more acceptable and express greater willingness to act in a similar manner.** In several studies, these effects are strongest for intoxicated men with hostile attitudes toward women. Survey researchers have asked male participants to describe incidents in which they behaved in a sexually aggressive manner. Men who commit sexual assault when drinking report having traits, attitudes, and experiences similar to those of other perpetrators except in the alcohol domain. Perpetrators who commit sexual assault when drinking tend to drink more than other perpetrators in sexual situations and **have stronger expectancies regarding alcohol’s effects on sexual behavior.** > **[Alcohol's Role in Sexual Violence Perpetration: Theoretical Explanations,...](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3177166/)** > > There is controversy regarding the extent to which alcohol plays a causal role in sexual assault perpetration. This paper critically reviews the relevant alcohol administration and survey research literature. Alcohol administration researchers have... But nevermind this. Ladies, let’s continue to obsess over ways to make ourselves safer, personal freedoms and fun-times be damned! ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/215 "2013-10-29T14:42:18Z")
Okay, this is going to be super embarrassing given how much I harped on it in this thread, but I was wrong. [While a lot of rapists may not consider themselves rapists, they are at least aware enough to know that they used force or took advantage of drunkenness to do so](http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/). It still leaves us with the problem of getting these people to understand that what they’re doing is rape and not okay, but I take back that a huge percentage of rapes are just Some Guy™ who is a little signal blind. ETA: And here’s a more interesting bit: > [@](#): > > Just 4% of the men surveyed\* committed over 400 attempted or completed rapes. - About 75 men total. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/216 "2013-10-29T14:45:08Z")
**Jragon** , it takes cojones to make that kind of admission. Thanks for bringing some science to the fore. ---
**Author:** ![Krouget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b38774/32.png) [@Krouget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krouget)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/217 "2013-10-29T14:50:36Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If we want to talk about rookie mistakes, let’s talk about conflating correlation with causation. Yes, lots are rapes are associated with alcohol consumption. But these same rapes are often associated with being out at late hours, loud music, and crowds. The common chord here is socializing. I don’t think there is much conflation going on, since we’ve reasonably established that rapists are the cause of rape. On the discussion of _responsibility_ for rape, any blame falls on the perpetrator. Meanwhile, there is a strong correlation with alcohol, and on the discussion of _prevention_ (within a college setting), a focus on alcohol makes sense. If anything, people are getting the two types of discussion mixed up, and are equating the discussion of prevention, to victim blaming, when blame is largely an ascription after an incident has taken place. Otherwise, I’ve seen numbers suggesting alcohol is involved in near 50% of rape cases, and 50-80% of those which take place on college campuses, depending on how the study was conducted. [http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh25-1/43-51.htm](http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh25-1/43-51.htm) [http://www.collegedrinkingprevention.gov/media/journal/118-abbey.pdf](http://www.collegedrinkingprevention.gov/media/journal/118-abbey.pdf) The Rape Abuse & Incest National Network has drinking-related items listed twice, on the discussion of prevention in social settings. Meanwhile, NIH states (on prevention): \*At parties or in other social situations, take the following steps: [ul] [li]Go with a group of friends, if possible, or keep in contact with someone you know during the party.[/li] [li] **Avoid drinking too much.** Do not accept drinks from someone you do not know, and keep your drink or beverage close to you.[/li] [li]Do not go somewhere alone or leave a party with someone you do not know or feel uncomfortable with.[/li][/ul]\*[Sexual assault - prevention: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia](http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/007461.htm) Instead of outrage, feedback suggesting a demand for more articles involving the opposite side, makes 100% sense and seems like a good response to this type of article and its author, IMO. > [@Mississippienne](#): > > I also find it worth noting that, after sharing my and my friend’s stories, certain posters kept picking at my friend’s story It may be better to leave anecdotal accounts out of this discussion, because those are unique to the individual. Ideally, we should focus on the the article, and try to argue points which don’t directly involve highly sensitive personal experiences. I have stories that would also directly apply, but they’re not best served here in advancing the discussion and certainly don’t need further scrutiny to prove or disprove anything. Just something to consider. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/218 "2013-10-29T15:09:08Z")
From the cite that **Jragon** provided: > [@](#): > > **Second, the sometimes-floated notion that acquaintance rape is simply a mistake about consent, is wrong.** (See Amanda Hess’s excellent takedown here.) The vast majority of the offenses are being committed by a relatively small group of men, somewhere between 4% and 8% of the population, who do it again … and again … and again. That just doesn’t square with the notion of innocent mistake. Further, since the repeaters are also responsible for a hugely disproportionate share of the intimate partner violence, child beating and child sexual abuse, the notion that these predators are somehow confused good guys does not square with the data. Most of the raping is done by guys who like to rape, and to abuse, assault and violate. Please note this conclusion follows from several scientific findings. Our discourse on rape would be greatly improved if we could make arguments based on evidence, not wild ass guesses, assumptions, and “common sense”. For some reason, rape seems to be ripe for armchair opinions, which explains why the internet is rife with articles like the one in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Krouget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b38774/32.png) [@Krouget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krouget)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/219 "2013-10-29T15:43:30Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > From the cite that **Jragon** provided: > > Please note this conclusion follows from several scientific findings. > > Our discourse on rape would be greatly improved if we could make arguments based on evidence, not wild ass guesses, assumptions, and “common sense”. For some reason, rape seems to be ripe for armchair opinions, which explains why the internet is rife with articles like the one in the OP. It’s interesting, because article reinforces the relationship, numerous times: \*“They use force sometimes, but mostly they use intoxicants. They don’t accidentally end up in a room with a woman too drunk or high to consent or resist; they plan on getting there and that’s where they end up.” “To rape again and again, these men need silence. They need to know that the right combination of factors — alcohol and sex shame, mostly — will keep their victims quiet. Otherwise, they would be identified earlier and have a harder time finding victims.” “The men in your lives will tell you what they do. As long as the R word doesn’t get attached, rapists do self-report. The guy who says he sees a woman too drunk to know where she is as an opportunity is not joking.”\* The article is consistent with published statistics on alcohol involvement in sexual abuse cases, and does the job of highlighting scenarios, alongside the research _(though there are some understandable guesses and assumptions)_. It especially touched on changing the overall culture, which is key and could use more emphasis, as someone stated earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/220 "2013-10-29T15:50:36Z")
Well, but careful. What we’ve got there is a cite that demonstrates that among self-reported rapists who got away with it, most offenses were committed by a small subset of that population. What you don’t have is any idea how many sexual assaults occurred where the guy (because only guys were interviewed in those studies) didn’t self-report. Whether or not “innocent mistake” is really what people are claiming is what’s going on, by definition those mistakes aren’t going to show up in that study. On top of that, the questions asked didn’t capture all possible instances of sexual assault; only (roughly speaking) rape or attempted rape. If, for instance, I had sex with somebody who I absolutely know did not want me to, but I don’t feel like I threatened any use of force or used force, which are concepts of considerable controversy, I’m obviously not going to self-report myself as a rapist, and the person or people I victimized aren’t going to be contemplated by the blogger’s assertion about “most of the raping.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156.md?page=12)