# Suggestion that women moderate drinking to avoid getting assaulted met with extreme outrage - Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 24, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156 "2013-10-24T20:04:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/321 "2013-11-07T15:41:34Z")
> [@thisishowwepray](#): > > I would not find the article problematic if it urged both men and women to moderate drinking. From the article: > [@](#): > > The culture of binge drinking—whose pinnacle is the college campus—does not just harm women. Surveys find that more than 40 percent of college students binge drink, defined by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention as consuming five or more drinks for a man and four or more for a woman in about two hours. Of those drinkers, many end their sessions on gurneys … > > I don’t believe any of these statistics will move in the right direction until binge drinking joins smoking, drunk driving, and domestic abuse as behaviors that were once typical and are now unacceptable. Reducing binge drinking is going to require education, enforcement, and a change in campus social culture. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/322 "2013-11-07T18:17:30Z")
I posted this in another thread, but I think it summarizes my view: Each of us, every day, does something that in retrospect could be inviting rape. I let the grocery delivery man in my apartment yesterday to set the groceries on the table. I’m recovering from surgery and can’t lift heavy items. He could have raped me. Yesterday, I took the baby out for a walk alone at night to calm her down. Someone could have raped me. Today, I am going alone to a happy hour. Someone could slip something in my drink and rape me. So you can’t complete eliminate risk. Really, you can’t get anywhere close to even minimizing it, short of becoming a shut in. It’s not a coincidence that the advice we receive about mitigating rape pretty much exactly mirrors the same boring old tropes that have been used to control women for centuries- generally try to always be under the protection of a man, don’t live or travel alone or otherwise show too much independence, keep your sexuality in narrow boundaries, don’t pursue jobs or whatever that could “put you at risk,” and don’t be too wild. Stay home, stay chaste, tend to the family and you’ll do fine. In generations past these controls were maintained by religion, the economic threat of being considered unmarriagable, etc. They were also fairly explicitly enforced by rape (and still are in some countries). In the West we no longer, as a matter of course, rape women who chose to defy their male relatives, work outside the home, or become politically active. But we can still give dire warnings in a faux-concerned tone. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/323 "2013-11-07T18:55:58Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > It’s not a coincidence that the advice we receive about mitigating rape pretty much exactly mirrors the same boring old tropes that have been used to control women for centuries- generally try to always be under the protection of a man, don’t live or travel alone or otherwise show too much independence, keep your sexuality in narrow boundaries, don’t pursue jobs or whatever that could “put you at risk,” and don’t be too wild. Stay home, stay chaste, tend to the family and you’ll do fine. Is it a coincidence that I hereby advise both men and women against drinking themselves into a state of incapacitated helplessness, while condemning anyone who’d prey on either such exemplar of falling-down-drunk stupefaction? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/324 "2013-11-07T19:04:50Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > … try to always be under the protection of a man, don’t live or travel alone or otherwise show too much independence, keep your sexuality in narrow boundaries, don’t pursue jobs or whatever that could “put you at risk,” and don’t be too wild. Stay home, stay chaste, tend to the family How closely do you feel this aligns with the advice presented in the article that’s the subject of this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/325 "2013-11-07T19:19:36Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Wait, Magiver…what? You think it is inaccurate to say that most people having drunk sex aren’t being raped?? I’m not **Magiver** , but I thought if you were drunk enough, you couldn’t consent and therefore it was rape. I’m not saying I agree with that reasoning, but there it is. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/326 "2013-11-07T22:16:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Speaking as a man, no, it isn’t even slightly insulting. Precisely _because_ I would never rape a woman, drunk or sober. > [@even\_sven](#): > > Good thing nobody is arguing that’ll I cannot consent after drinking, then. > > Drinking is fine. Drunk is fine. Passed out, incoherent or unable to communicate is not. > [@thisishowwepray](#): > > I don’t think we are really at odds, either. I understand your point about the difficulty of establishing consent when both parties are drink, but I have (and most people I know have, and I’m guessing most of you have) had drunk sex that just felt clearly consensual to both parties. > [@Shodan](#): > > I’m not **Magiver** , but I thought if you were drunk enough, you couldn’t consent and therefore it was rape. I’m not saying I agree with that reasoning, but there it is. This. Consider the concept of consent. It could be active or passively given. But realistically, it can only be actively denied. I think we all agree that “no” means “no”. That is different than not consenting. And this is important when alcohol enters into it. From a legal standpoint a person who is drunk is not considered to be in full mental faculty. Having sex with a drunk invites a legal interpretation of consent. Was it actively given before and after getting drunk? Was “no” ever stated? It would be very possible to have sex with a drunk women and wake up in a jail cell because her sober side didn’t want to have sex with you. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/327 "2013-11-07T23:19:03Z")
But that’s not actually how the law works. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/328 "2013-11-07T23:36:50Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > But that’s not actually how the law works. The law responds to charges of rape. There is no “get out of jail free” card if the charge is disputed. ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/329 "2013-11-08T00:04:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It would be very possible to have sex with a drunk women and wake up in a jail cell because her sober side didn’t want to have sex with you. This is exactly why I suggest that men moderate their drinking: to avoid being accused of assault. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/330 "2013-11-08T03:59:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The law responds to charges of rape. There is no “get out of jail free” card if the charge is disputed. No, there’s not. But charges won’t be brought unless there’s an allegation of a crime. In my state, being drunk in itself doesn’t render a person incapable of consent , so there wouldn’t be any waking up in a jail cell because her sober self said she was drunk at the time. Her “sober self” would have to allege that she was passed out at the time, or that she was drunk because someone gave her alcohol without her consent. And I doubt if any state has a law saying that simply being drunk makes one unable to consent. Just because of the practicalities and logic of it. A has sex with B who is drunk. So A raped B. But A was also drunk, so B also raped A. Two victims and two rapists. Not to mention the fact that it makes no sense to say that voluntary intoxication eliminates the capacity to consent to sex, but has no bearing on criminal responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/331 "2013-11-08T04:31:00Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > No, there’s not. But charges won’t be brought unless there’s an allegation of a crime. In my state, being drunk in itself doesn’t render a person incapable of consent , so there wouldn’t be any waking up in a jail cell because her sober self said she was drunk at the time. Her “sober self” would have to allege that she was passed out at the time, or that she was drunk because someone gave her alcohol without her consent. > And I doubt if any state has a law saying that simply being drunk makes one unable to consent. Just because of the practicalities and logic of it. A has sex with B who is drunk. So A raped B. But A was also drunk, so B also raped A. Two victims and two rapists. Not to mention the fact that it makes no sense to say that voluntary intoxication eliminates the capacity to consent to sex, but has no bearing on criminal responsibility. I wish Bricker would pop in and explain the legal side of this better. The point I’m trying to make is that a person who is drunk does not have the same mental capacity to reason as when sober. This doesn’t just affect the person who is drunk. It affects anybody dealing with the person who is drunk. Taking advantage of a drunk person doesn’t bode well in a court setting. It’s good advice for women not to get drunk at bars for a number of reason. Rape is one of them. It’s good advice for men not to get drunk in bars. Rape is one of them. Even if I could tolerate a drunk woman I would not go to bed with her. It’s along the same risk as being a male school teacher and being in a room alone with a female student. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/332 "2013-11-08T11:50:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The law responds to charges of rape. There is no “get out of jail free” card if the charge is disputed. There is a get out of jail free card, because consensual sex with a drunk person is not against the law. So how could you go to jail for it? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/333 "2013-11-08T12:16:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I wish Bricker would pop in and explain the legal side of this better. The point I’m trying to make is that a person who is drunk does not have the same mental capacity to reason as when sober. This doesn’t just affect the person who is drunk. It affects anybody dealing with the person who is drunk. Taking advantage of a drunk person doesn’t bode well in a court setting. No one is disputing that someone who is drunk doesn’t have the same mental capacity as someone who is sober. But that doesn’t mean the legal system treats who is voluntarily drunk as someone who cannot consent to sex. And as far as “taking advantage of a drunk person not boding well in a legal setting”, that depends on what you mean. If you you mean that sometimes drunk people are easier to victimize and a jury might take that into account, maybe. But first there has to be an allegation that something illegal happened- and “He had sex with me when I was drunk” by itself isn’t going to be enough in most places. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/334 "2013-11-08T12:33:56Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > There is a get out of jail free card, because consensual sex with a drunk person is not against the law. So how could you go to jail for it? In [college campuses](http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2013/10/24/statistics-dont-back-up-claims-about-rape-culture) across North America where an accusation will suffice. Keep in mind that public accusations of rape even if unfounded is all it takes to ruin a persons life, jail time or not. There’s also a push by feminists that [drunk sex is not consent](http://stopviolenceuw.wordpress.com/2011/08/23/consent-while-drunk-is-not-consent/). Regret the next morning should not be considered rape. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/335 "2013-11-08T14:02:03Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > In [college campuses](http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2013/10/24/statistics-dont-back-up-claims-about-rape-culture) across North America where an accusation will suffice. > > Keep in mind that public accusations of rape even if unfounded is all it takes to ruin a persons life, jail time or not. > > There’s also a push by feminists that [drunk sex is not consent](http://stopviolenceuw.wordpress.com/2011/08/23/consent-while-drunk-is-not-consent/). Regret the next morning should not be considered rape. So you’d like women to moderate their drinking to lessen your chances of a false accusation? Or is it that you’d like rape accusations to be taken less seriously? False accusations have nothing to do with drunkedness, the legality of drunken sex, or anything we are discussing. Bringing them in to this debate is a straw man. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/336 "2013-11-08T14:45:30Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > So you’d like women to moderate their drinking to lessen your chances of a false accusation? Or is it that you’d like rape accusations to be taken less seriously? > > False accusations have nothing to do with drunkedness, the legality of drunken sex, or anything we are discussing. Bringing them in to this debate is a straw man. Hey you’re the one that brought it up. > [@](#): > > There is a get out of jail free card, because consensual sex with a drunk person is not against the law. So how could you go to jail for it? ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/337 "2013-11-08T14:46:28Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > In [college campuses](http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2013/10/24/statistics-dont-back-up-claims-about-rape-culture) across North America where an accusation will suffice. > > Keep in mind that public accusations of rape even if unfounded is all it takes to ruin a persons life, jail time or not. > > There’s also a push by feminists that [drunk sex is not consent](http://stopviolenceuw.wordpress.com/2011/08/23/consent-while-drunk-is-not-consent/). Regret the next morning should not be considered rape. On some college campuses, rape cases are handled by the college authorities, who have a vested interest in finding that it wasn’t rape. Instead, it’s regarded as a [teachable moment](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124111931&ps=rs) for the rapist, who gets a slap on the wrist and MIGHT get suspended for a semester or two. The rapist gets no criminal penalties, no criminal record, even if he has a history of doing this before. Keep in mind that getting raped is all it takes to ruin a person’s life. And being drunk does not mean that a person is consenting to sex. If a person is drunk enough, s/he’ll consent to having his/her own spleen removed. Don’t want to get accused of rape the next day? Then don’t screw drunk people. There are a lot of rapists who purposely target drunken women, and then claim that she wanted it. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/338 "2013-11-08T15:09:32Z")
Puking qualifies as a safe word, one should suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/339 "2013-11-09T02:11:25Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > And being drunk does not mean that a person is consenting to sex. If a person is drunk enough, s/he’ll consent to having his/her own spleen removed. Don’t want to get accused of rape the next day? Then don’t screw drunk people. There are a lot of rapists who purposely target drunken women, and then claim that she wanted it. Are you sure? I read on the internet somewhere that false accusations have nothing to do with being in an alcoholic stupor. But what I think the author of the article is trying to say is that if you don’t want people to prey on your inability to make good decisions then don’t put yourself in a position of intellectual compromise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156.md?page=16)