# Suggestion that women moderate drinking to avoid getting assaulted met with extreme outrage - Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 24, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156 "2013-10-24T20:04:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/41 "2013-10-25T00:16:45Z")
Damn, that was a long article (for someone with my attention span), but generally well written, firmly backed up with statistics and references, and clearly written out of real concern. I suspect that the people kicking up a stink about it either haven’t read it through or are deliberately reading their own interpretations into it. The issues of victim-blaming, male accountability, women’s freedom, and feminism are all addressed _right there in the article._ > [@monstro](#): > > Ever notice how men are never told to moderate their drinking so as to reduce their chances of committing rape against someone? She also does just that, _ **in the article.** _ > [@](#): > > \*\*Yoffe: \*\*If I had a son, I would tell him that it’s in his self-interest not to be the drunken frat boy who finds himself accused of raping a drunken classmate. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/42 "2013-10-25T00:31:04Z")
A drunk female isn’t capable of consenting to getting laid. Okay, that is understood. Is a drunk male capable of consenting to getting laid? If a male gets drunk at a singles bar, then knocks up a female he met there, but said female isn’t drunk, is _she_ guilty of rape? If they are both drunk, are they _both_ guilty of rape? ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/43 "2013-10-25T00:36:15Z")
Both my boy and girl children got “the talk” for what good it did. Cuz here’s the bottom line: Take out the sex. Take out the alcohol. That clears the thinking a bit. Who’s going to be the best at taking care of YOU? YOU are. Don’t ever count on society doing it better than you can. And it doesn’t hurt to ask for help when you need it. Add the sex and alcohol factors back in and people start projecting all kinds of crazy stuff. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/44 "2013-10-25T00:37:48Z")
I didn’t read the whole thing and I still haven’t. But this bit has got my eyebrow raised: > [@Yoffe](#): > > If female college students start moderating their drinking as a way of looking out for their own self-interest—and looking out for your own self-interest should be a primary feminist principle—I hope their restraint trickles down to the men. WTF. This sentiment is what offends people. Women are not and should not be responsible for “trickling down” morality to men. They should be held accountable for _their_ actions, just as women should be. Instead of lecturing to sons she doesn’t have, why not write an essay directed at both men and women? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/45 "2013-10-25T00:39:26Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Conversely men should not drink themselves too drunk as it tends to cloud their judgement and make them think it is ok to rape women. Perhaps I’m biased against rapists, but I tend to think that men who get hammered and rape someone are predisposed to sexual violence whether sober, tipsy, or intoxicated. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/46 "2013-10-25T00:42:23Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Conversely men should not drink themselves too drunk as it tends to cloud their judgement and make them think it is ok to rape women. Perhaps for a small minority of men but the vast majority of men who have ever gotten drunk have _not_ thought it was ok to rape women while in that inebriated state. That’s a ridiculous statement. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/47 "2013-10-25T00:47:17Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Perhaps for a small minority of men but the vast majority of men who have ever gotten drunk have _not_ thought it was ok to rape women while in that inebriated state. That’s a ridiculous statement. It’s not like all women who get drunk end up raped either. It would be nice to have statistics for both before any claiming anything is “ridiculous”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/48 "2013-10-25T00:55:20Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Ever notice how a man getting drunk and having sex is a rapist but a woman getting drunk and having sex is a victim? > [@monstro](#): > > I’ve never noticed this. :dubious: It comes up in thread like this _all the time,_ including how if a couple has drinks together and have sex he’s technically “raping” her because she can’t give proper consent. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/49 "2013-10-25T00:58:28Z")
I can guarantee that if no woman ever got drunk again there would be fewer rapes. Premise 1: Having sex without consent is rape, by definition Premise 2: A drunken person cannot consent Premise 3: The number of women who have been raped due to being unable to consent due to alcohol is non-zero Premise 4: If no women ever drank alcohol, they would never able to be raped due to lack of consent due to intoxication by alcohol. Therefore: Women not drinking reduces all rapes of women due to intoxication to zero, and thus lowers the absolute number of rapes! [sub]While this logic isn’t necessarily wrong, I want it to be known that I’m intentionally being kind of silly[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/50 "2013-10-25T00:59:26Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It’s not like all women who get drunk end up raped either. > > It would be nice to have statistics for both before any claiming anything is “ridiculous”. So you’re suggesting that there is a possibility that most men-having consumed enough alcohol-would find the act of rape acceptable? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/51 "2013-10-25T01:16:43Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > So you’re suggesting that there is a possibility that most men-having consumed enough alcohol-would find the act of rape acceptable? :dubious: Are you suggesting that most women who get drunk become the victims of sexual assault? We can do this all night, if you want. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/52 "2013-10-25T01:24:51Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Are you suggesting that most women who get drunk become the victims of sexual assault? > > We can do this all night, if you want. Huh? Where did that come from? I was responding to **HoneyBadgerDC** ’s broad generalization that over-indulgence in alcohol made men think rape was ok. As if there was something inherently bad in men that could be brought out if enough alcohol were consumed. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/53 "2013-10-25T01:31:33Z")
[Here is some information about college rapists:](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124272157) > [@](#): > > He found them by, over a 20-year period, asking some 2,000 men in college questions like this: “Have you ever had sexual intercourse with someone, even though they did not want to, because they were too intoxicated [on alcohol or drugs] to resist your sexual advances?” > > Or: “Have you ever had sexual intercourse with an adult when they didn’t want to because you used physical force [twisting their arm, holding them down, etc.] if they didn’t cooperate?” > > About 1 in 16 men answered “yes” to these or similar questions. I take two things away from this interview: Women do need to be careful with alcohol, because alcohol certainly makes them more vulnerable to sexual assaults. AND One out of 16 college-aged men are fucked-up. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/54 "2013-10-25T02:13:02Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Perhaps for a small minority of men but the vast majority of men who have ever gotten drunk have _not_ thought it was ok to rape women while in that inebriated state. That’s a ridiculous statement. I agree it is a rediculous statement, just as this entire thread is. I was being facitious. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/55 "2013-10-25T02:24:04Z")
> [@astro](#): > > On the face of it this would seem to be pure common sense and yet a lot of people, mainly women, accused her of fostering “rape denialism” and enabling rapists by even intimating there was something women could do to prevent becoming vulnerable to getting raped. Why does this have to be a binary scenario? Why can’t it be acknowledged that rape is wrong and should be prosecuted and, at the same time, tell women to moderate behaviors that make them vulnerable? > > Her advice seems common-sensical why the extreme reactions? The title of the article is infantilizing and condescending. If she wanted to give sensible advice, the title should have been: “Sexual predators are much more likely to target intoxicated individuals.” That would have given women enough information to decide for themselves whether they should moderate their drinking. The article did not give woman a choice. “Stop getting drunk” is the title. Yes getting drunk is incredibly dangerous, but last I checked everyone over 21 is allowed to do it. According to the article it’s a pretty common social activity. Telling women to stop getting drunk, without giving them a choice to engage in a common but risky activity is infantilizing. It’s also condescending because women know that getting drunk is dangerous. The article is completely right about drinking and sexual assualt, but it’s wrong about the proposed solution. It’s a simple-minded view on a very complicated topic. There is more to protecting women from sexual assault than telling them to stop drinking, and simply telling women to stop drinking won’t prevent sexual assault. > [@Bricker](#): > > And I should be able to walk down a dark alley in Hunt’s Point at night with a diamond pinky ring and fifties sticking out of my pocket with no fear of being robbed. > > But there’s nothing but idiocy in saying that the ideological “I should” should yield to the obvious truth about the world: I cannot. There is a difference between walking down a dark alley with diamond rings and money sticking out, and getting drunk. One is a common social activity engaged by 40% of all college students according to the article. No one cares about walking down an alley while flashing money. The problem with most “common sense” advice on how to avoid sexual assault is that it usually involves asking women not to engage in common activities - don’t dress sexy, don’t walk home at night, don’t go out by yourself, etc. These are things that normal people do all the time, and women are told not to do these things unless they want to risk getting sexually assaulted. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/56 "2013-10-25T02:43:13Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > The title of the article is infantilizing and condescending. > > If she wanted to give sensible advice, the title should have been: “Sexual predators are much more likely to target intoxicated individuals.” That would have given women enough information to decide for themselves whether they should moderate their drinking. > > The article did not give woman a choice. “Stop getting drunk” is the title. Yes getting drunk is incredibly dangerous, but last I checked everyone over 21 is allowed to do it. According to the article it’s a pretty common social activity. > > Telling women to stop getting drunk, without giving them a choice to engage in a common but risky activity is infantilizing. It’s also condescending because women know that getting drunk is dangerous. > > The article is completely right about drinking and sexual assualt, but it’s wrong about the proposed solution. It’s a simple-minded view on a very complicated topic. There is more to protecting women from sexual assault than telling them to stop drinking, and simply telling women to stop drinking won’t prevent sexual assault. Making women aware that some things they like to do are potentially going to put them in harms way is infantilizing and condescending? Is telling male and female adults not to drink and drive infantilizing and condescending because people already know it’s dangerous? Your presumed standard for advice that the only way you can usefully and non-insultingly warn or caution someone is not to repeat obvious information they already know seems like an absurdly high standard. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/57 "2013-10-25T03:48:29Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Ever notice how men are never told to moderate their drinking so as to reduce their chances of committing rape against someone? I have no data to support this, but I’m willing to bet alcohol is responsible for both sides of the “rape” equation. > > I ain’t got a problem with women being lectured to as long as men get their fair share of finger-waggling. No…but men are pretty regularly told not to drink too much so that they don’t get into dangerous situations, so that they don’t start picking fights, so that they can take care of themselves when out and about. They are also pretty regularly warned about the effects of “beer googles” - while not exactly the same it does hold similar messages. Whether we like it or not - the dangers of getting drunk for ladies are more than just violent rape - they also include greater risk of date rape style behaviour, errors of judgement that put you into dangerous positions and rely on the honesty of someone else to keep you safe. (whether it be from rape or something else) Men are also regularly warned about the dangers of drinking too much - from spending more than you intend, to poor risk assessment to doing something dumb - why should woman NOT be warned about one of the dangers of getting drunk? ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/58 "2013-10-25T03:54:11Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > So you’re suggesting that there is a possibility that most men-having consumed enough alcohol-would find the act of rape acceptable? :dubious: I’d be willing to bet, that “most men having consumed enough alcohol” would make a much poorer decision of how “into it” the women was, and would not be as cognizant, nor as considerate of a woman’s feelings as a sober man. In short - being drunk is a two way street in terms of risk (much as ANY person who is drunk are not paragons of taking note of the feelings of others, reading signals, and having that barrier between brain and actions that we normally have) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/59 "2013-10-25T03:57:31Z")
This thread is timely as I just got back from a fraternity/sorority alumni happy hour in Manhattan. So I was talking to some Tri-Delt who was telling me how in college she could “drink men under the table” going shot for shot. You can’t. It’s basic physiology. Tolerance is a function of body mass and a 115 lb girl cannot drink a 200+ lb man under the table. This basic fact of physiology has been at the core of Greek social doctrine since the first brother pledged the Alpha class of Alpha chapter at Alpha Alpha Alpha. That is to say, women will get much drunker then men much quicker and then make stupid decisions regarding how they want to spend the rest of the evening and with who. Even more creepily, there will be plenty of guys who will simply wait for women to get drunk so they can make those decisions for them. People who meet the suggestion that “women should moderate drinking” with outrage are idiots. First of all, not getting shitfaced a good idea anyway, for anyone, for any number of reasons. And second, as I pointed out, there are usually plenty of guys waiting for you to get wasted so they can take advantage of you. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156/60 "2013-10-25T04:19:49Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Perhaps I’m biased against rapists, but I tend to think that men who get hammered and rape someone are predisposed to sexual violence whether sober, tipsy, or intoxicated. What definition of rape are you using here? The guy that quite genuinely doesn’t realize how overbearing or threatening he’s being, or that the lady isn’t into it\* or the guy that just says “fuck-it, she doesn’t want to be I don’t care”? I really don’t buy into the idea of “predisposed” - what other things are you applying it to? And then what of the proof that alcohol lowers inhibitions? - note - I’m not making a judgement of whether he SHOULD realise, rather that he doesn’t [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suggestion-that-women-moderate-drinking-to-avoid-getting-assaulted-met-with-extreme-outrage-why/672156.md?page=4)