# Suicidal idiot changes mind, but leaves vehicle on train tracks, then tragedy ensues. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 26, 2005, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819 "2005-01-26T21:06:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/41 "2005-01-27T13:52:02Z")
It’ll be a matter of moments before someone posts the tired cliche’ about having enough **compassion** to go around for _all parties involved_ – that Juan Manuel Alvarez deserves **sympathy**. That his drug use and suicidal feelings are an illness. That part of fighting ignorance is understanding what went on in the mind of the derananged murdered. Fuck that. Fuck his illness. Fuck him. Instead of making excuses, try putting 100% of your sympathies where the rightfully belong; with the inncoent victims and their families. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/42 "2005-01-27T14:00:30Z")
> [@JohnBckWLD](#): > > It’ll be a matter of moments before someone posts the tired cliche’ about having enough **compassion** to go around for _all parties involved_ – that Juan Manuel Alvarez deserves **sympathy**. That his drug use and suicidal feelings are an illness. That part of fighting ignorance is understanding what went on in the mind of the derananged murdered. Fuck that. Fuck his illness. Fuck him. Instead of making excuses, try putting 100% of your sympathies where the rightfully belong; with the inncoent victims and their families. I don’t think the two things are incompossible. He **is** mentally ill; he does have psychological problems. And he chose to act out his problems in a way that caused the death of a dozen innocent people, the injury of a couple hundred others, and serious property damage as well. And for that he **is** responsible. Practical justice takes his problems into account, and ensures that they do not cause him ever to cause this sort of tragedy again. (It might even be a wake-up call to how we deal with the suicidally depressed and escapist drug-abusers, to make sure that someone else doesn’t find it convenient to escape his problems in a way that takes innocent victims along with him.) ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/43 "2005-01-27T14:05:25Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > Question: Is there any kind of barrier that could be constructed to make it impossible for anyone to get their vehicle onto those tracks in the first place? [Probably not](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0501270340jan27,1,872602.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=2&cset=true), or at least prohibitively expensive: > [@](#): > > The government’s current rail safety push focuses largely on requiring installation of gates that block all four quadrants of a railroad-highway crossing to prevent vehicles from snaking around the gates when a train approaches. > > In addition to the four-quadrant gates, crossing designs include raised concrete medians to prevent motorists from attempting to steer past lowering gates. But a raised median would be only a limited deterrent to a determined SUV driver. > > Safety experts said that other than building crash-proof fences, or stationing guards along the entire 512-mile Metrolink route, it would be virtually impossible to prevent suicidal people from accessing the tracks. And that’s only for that particular area - imagine having to do that all around the US. Then imagine the increased costs for track maintenance due to having to deal with the fences, and so forth. Then fence maintenance - various areas along Chicago’s Metra commuter train (diesel, not the elevated/subway line) have fences around/between tracks to prevent pedestrians from cutting across the tracks at non-crossing areas, but one family of a teen killed by a train tried to sue the train line for “allowing” a hole to remain in the fence, which had most likely been put there by people who wanted to continue to cross at that point. Another family of a boy killed when he rode his bicycle across train tracks even though the road crossing gate was down and the lights and bells were going off tried to sue over not having an additional short crossing arm across the sidewalk. (I suppose the next kid who rides around that crossing arm will have parents who sue over something else.) ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/44 "2005-01-27T14:17:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Question: Is there any kind of barrier that could be constructed to make it impossible for anyone to get their vehicle onto those tracks in the first place? Not really. Not without completely redesigning the roads. And even then, people can still walk on or drive around to another section. And it’d be nearly impossible to do this with every road that might have to cross the tracks, I imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/45 "2005-01-27T18:15:12Z")
So far (coincidentally), the only person I knew involving the incident was the Costco store manager, Ruben Cabrera who with his employees, were first line responders to the incident. As a former Price Club employee (Price Club eventually merged with Costco back in 1993, when we were both at the Colton Price Club), a big kudos to him and his morning crew. It’s been at least 10 years since I’ve seen him, glad to hear that he’s doing well and was a great help to the injured. As for the push-pull commuter trains, it looks like a certainy that the commuter cars were pushed when the first commuter car initially hit the SUV which in turn, was easier to cause a derailment, which happened. I’ve heard that commuters are warned to fill the commuter cars in the rear of the train before filling up the front car to avoid higher casualties when incidents like these occur…and that there is written literature or signs that relay this message. I wonder if Metrolink will be somewhat responsible for advocating this type of system in such a crowded city with many vehicle crossings. I know this method was used to save money from rotating the trains at the end of the line, but now I am not convinced that this is such a cost effective method. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/46 "2005-01-27T18:35:07Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Or lick the third rail. I’ve never seen a third rail line\* where a person could just walk onto the tracks - they’re always separated from clueless humans by fences, tunnels and elevated structures. That said, every so often, someone does the “human accident” bit on the BART system here. As the train approaches the platform, they just step off the edge and get squished by the train as it enters the station. If the jumper times it “right” they’ll be eye-to-eye with the train operator and the TO has no time to react as the jumper popped out from behind a wall. During the dot-com-bomb era, there were quite a few of these - seemed like one every other month or so, but time may have compressed my memory. Now that the economy has settled out, I haven’t heard of a BART suicide in a while. - Except for Chicago’s Skokie Swift line at the Skokie terminal, which I believe has been converted to overhead wire. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/47 "2005-01-27T18:45:34Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > This train isn’t a wide-gage commerical, Amtrak-style passenger train. It’s a “light rail” system, similar to a subway train, like the Boston T or the CalTran SF Corridor train. > > Stranger Seriously? But subways are usually considered heavy rail. Do the metrolink trains really have a narrower guage than a standard freight? IANA railroad worker but I thought that anytime it was suggested to build a guage wider or narrower than the U.S. standard of 4"6", it would be a remarkable and unusual event. In any case, I’m pretty sure that the tracks at Union Station downtown are all the same standard guage. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/48 "2005-01-27T18:52:20Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > It might have been too late by that time. A friend of mine’s dad died when he stopped his car on a set of train tracks and the wheels got stuck on the rails. We’ll never know, of course but the theory was that he didn’t realize the tracks were in active use (he was in a strange town) and when he heard the signals, panicked and was still trying to move the car when the train hit it. His vehicle wasn’t just standing at the RR crossing. He had maneuvered it a ways along the tracks, completely away from the asphalt, and was on the tracks in the railbed. From what I heard it would have been almost impossible to move the vehicle from that spot once it was lodged in there. (And probably almost impossible to get it there in the first place if it had been a car or mini-pickup, but this was a Jeep Cherokee.) **Annie** , I don’t think he’ll be charged with 1st degree murder, which would be a prerequisite for the death penalty, but he’ll likely never see the light of day again, or earn money, or be able to do anything worthwhile with his life. ---
**Author:** ![5que](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/3bc359/32.png) [@5que](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5que)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/49 "2005-01-27T19:05:18Z")
> [@Ferret Herder](#): > > Then fence maintenance - various areas along Chicago’s Metra commuter train (diesel, not the elevated/subway line) have fences around/between tracks to prevent pedestrians from cutting across the tracks at non-crossing areas, but one family of a teen killed by a train tried to sue the train line for “allowing” a hole to remain in the fence, which had most likely been put there by people who wanted to continue to cross at that point. Lived in Villa Park when this happened (it was in sight of the train station). There is a middle school near the tracks and kids pushed holes in the fence to use it as a short-cut to and from school. Metra had repaired the fence previously but the kids would just make another hole. ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/50 "2005-01-27T19:10:09Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > **Annie** , I don’t think he’ll be charged with 1st degree murder, which would be a prerequisite for the death penalty, but he’ll likely never see the light of day again, or earn money, or be able to do anything worthwhile with his life. Just happen to have [NY Times article](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/27/national/27cnd-train.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5094&en=c5675abdefe17cf4&hp&ex=1106888400&partner=homepage) up in another tab: > [@](#): > > The district attorney, Steve Cooley, said prosecutors filed charges late Wednesday against Juan Manuel Alvarez, 25, for 10 counts of murder with “special circumstances,” which makes him eligible for the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/51 "2005-01-27T19:10:36Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > **Annie** , I don’t think he’ll be charged with 1st degree murder, which would be a prerequisite for the death penalty, but he’ll likely never see the light of day again, or earn money, or be able to do anything worthwhile with his life. [CNN update](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/27/train.derailment/index.html) He might get the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/52 "2005-01-27T19:16:49Z")
Man what a crazy story. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/53 "2005-01-27T20:41:07Z")
I had a horrible thought. What if this was a test run? What if someone wanted to see what would happen if you leave a vehicle parked on the tracks? And what if next time, the vehicle is filled with explosives? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/54 "2005-01-27T21:17:08Z")
Oh great; check this out, from the Yahoo article: **Dogshit II: Electric Boogaloo!** > [@](#): > > Early Thursday, another suicidal man was arrested in Orange County after he parked his sport utility vehicle on railroad tracks, said Irvine police Cmdr. Dave Freedland. He drove off after he was spotted by police, and a dispatcher talked him out of suicide during a cell phone call, authorities said. Freedland declined to say if the incident was considered a copycat crime. Jesus H. Christ. Somebody saw the news coverage and said to himself “Wow, what a great way to off myself! I think I’ll try that!” How deranged do you have to be to…gah. At the very very least, Alvarez has the luxury of saying “I had no idea it would be that bad.” (And believe me, I’m not trying to excuse him; I’ve been sitting here, trying not to think “Gee, it’s too bad he changed his mind about killing himself, 'cause I’m sure there’re several thousand people in L.A. alone who’d be happy to rip his head off for him. With their bare hands.”) Whoever this latest guy was has no such luxury. He knew how bad it could be and that it would likely kill a bunch of people who, unlike him, didn’t want to die, and he was going to do it anyway. What a…I can’t even think of an epithet low enough to describe this guy. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/55 "2005-01-27T21:25:42Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > I had a horrible thought. > > What if this was a test run? > > What if someone wanted to see what would happen if you leave a vehicle parked on the tracks? > > And what if next time, the vehicle is filled with explosives? I can walk 10 feet to my window and look out over a big hole in the ground (now a large construction site). 3 years and 3 months ago, I would have walked to the same window and had my view blocked by two incredibly tall buildings. And yet I’m not this paranoid and fearful about terrorist attacks. You are far more likely to get caught up in some random nuts idiocy than a terrorist attack. Please, for the love/fear of Og, stop viewing every little thing as a terrorist precursor. Bad shit happens. Dumb people do dumb stuff. Evil people do evil stuff. And the vast majority of them are not dry-runs for the next Columbine / Oklahoma City / World Trade Center. ---
**Author:** ![liirogue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dbc845/32.png) [@liirogue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liirogue)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/56 "2005-01-28T01:26:04Z")
Does anyone know where I can find a list of the dead and injured? A friend of mine just moved to LA, and I’m almost positive she wasn’t on the train, but she hasn’t responded to any of my emails. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/57 "2005-01-28T02:35:37Z")
I’ve been looking, **liirogue**. So far, all I can figure out is to call 1 800 COMMUTE, for the transit system. I only got as far as pressing 1 for English and then 1 again for LA county info. Perhaps you could get to a real person at some point. ``` Since it happened in Glendale, you might have more luck contacting that city's City Hall, or police or fire departments. ``` Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/58 "2005-01-28T03:20:30Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > You are far more likely to get caught up in some random nuts idiocy than a terrorist attack. Please, for the love/fear of Og, stop viewing every little thing as a terrorist precursor. Bad shit happens. Dumb people do dumb stuff. Evil people do evil stuff. And the vast majority of them are not dry-runs for the next Columbine / Oklahoma City / World Trade Center. While you may be correct, chiding **ivylass** for thinking is a flawed approach. Alert, aware citizens are the first line of protection we have as a nation. As a first responder, I’d much rather scramble for a false alarm that was initiated by a well meaning citizen looking our for their neighbors than hear afterwards that people saw things but didn’t want to trouble the authorities because they thought it was nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/59 "2005-01-28T03:55:29Z")
This crash was also pretty much the perfect storm of disasterous elements, what with the push engine and the non-commuter train sitting there to jack-knife the first one and then the thirs train going northbound at the same time. Go to [http://latimes.com](http://latimes.com) if you haven’t seen a graphic of what exactly happened. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819/60 "2005-01-28T13:51:34Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > You are far more likely to get caught up in some random nuts idiocy than a terrorist attack. Please, for the love/fear of Og, stop viewing every little thing as a terrorist precursor. Bad shit happens. Dumb people do dumb stuff. Evil people do evil stuff. And the vast majority of them are not dry-runs for the next Columbine / Oklahoma City / World Trade Center. Look, I’m the chick who didn’t realize it was a terrorist attack until the second plane hit. Until then I thought it was just a horrible accident. I think in these times it is not unreasonable to have a thought pop into your head that it might be something more. I’m not going to run to the FBI any time anything bad happens, screaming that it’s a terrorist attack. But in this day and age, it’s something that is not out of the realm of possibility. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicidal-idiot-changes-mind-but-leaves-vehicle-on-train-tracks-then-tragedy-ensues/286819.md?page=4)