Ok, I’m certainly not saying I support this particular view, but if the song about the suicide bomber is indeed endorsed by governments, I’m willing to bet that those same governments would point at “Ballad of the Green Berets” for how the US glamorized a guy who kills people and didn’t return home, then urges his son to do the same thing.
I think you raise a good point there. Again, i think there is a difference, though. As unsettling as the idea of the government endorsing the “Ballad of the Green Berets” is, it is at least honoring things that happened during acts of declared war and actions that (presumably) followed the “laws of war”. Honoring a suicide bomber would be more like honoring a soldier who tortured innocent civilians…
I beg to differ. IMHO, the ease of ending suicide bombers is limited only by the will to follow through, to the point of doing things that are less than “moral”. To stop suicide bombings, just make the retaliatory response so unpalatable and fearsome that none will attempt it again. For example, Bush squandered an opportunity to do this after 9/11. With the US on the moral high ground and Bush intent on pissing away international goodwill anyway, he could have done some truly insane shit like a military invasion of Saudi Arabia leading to overthrow of the House of Saud, redrawing of national borders including the breakup of Iraq and Afghanistan, the indiscrminate random killing of innocents until Osama is given up, and megadeth up to the level of genocide. At some point, the dust clears, the US undergoes a re-election cycle, the next President makes a formal, sincere apology to the world and we move on under new management. But the problem would be solved, as nobody would be crazy enough to attack the US again. When dealing with suicide bombings, the craziest motherfucker wins.
I love it when you call me Big Poppa!
On the other hand, one can very easily demonstrate the efficacy of fire codes, fire departments, and so on. Further, these programs impose upon most of our lives very little - how often do American bemoan the hassle imposed by over-zealous fire departments or municipal code drafters? It happens, I’m sure, but rarely.
On the other hand, American-style counter-terror tactics impose great costs upon us, in terms of both privacy and convenience, and their efficacy is questionable - does a no-liquids policy really prevent future terror attacks?
For these reasons, it is probably more reasonable to say that the effort Americans expend on terror prevention is excessive vis-a-vis the number of deaths prevented, than it is to say the same of fire departments.
(Note, BTW, that I’m emphasizing American counter-terror strategy. The Israelis are probably better at it - Ford knows you’ve had more practice.)
Bruce Schneier has some good essays and articles about the fallibility of human risk perception that are definitely related to this part of the thread.
The Psychology of Security
The Feeling and Reality of Security
Immediacy Affects Risk Assessments
Various essays on terrorism and security.
The only way you could realistically prevent the possibility of suicide bombers is to create a total police state. You’d need a security agency with pretty much unlimited powers like the Gestapo or KGB. You’d need a society where everyone was watching everyone else and would denounce their neighbours for any suspicous activities. You’d need a “legal” system that was willing to round up a lot of innocents in order to make sure it got everyone who was guilty. You’d need Oceania.
So, not a really good place to live. Overall, I’d rather live in a society where there is the possibility of a suicide bomber.
That’s because they are attacking the enemy as far as large segments of the population are concerned. That enemy being heretics to your religion, different tribe or ethnicity etc. Or foreign occupiers. Or their quisling allies.
Why would you expect them to protest?
Because encouraging one of your own people to strap on a bomb and then kill civilians is evil, barbaric, and shameful?
Well the reason you don’t see it my dear sir is because you are a bigoted idiot who dose not want to see it. Just use google, though I suspect using that is far beyond yoyur intellectual capability.
Here are some examples
http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=104788
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/pakistani-women-protesting-against-taliban
As for the issue of what you do when suicide bombings are happening, well first knock on wood, I don’t want to get blown up tommorrow, but the last thing you need to do is to panic. You defend yourself, you cut out activities and places where you will be at risk and wait until the security forces have shut the sources down.
I have not been to a nightclub, or the cinema since a good six weeks, spend as little time in the markets as possible generally stay indoors.
They are not their ‘own’ people for crying out loud. Since when are Israelis the palestininans ‘own people’.
Or Shia the Sunni? Or Pashtun’s and everyone else in Afghanistan and Pakistan?
That’s the whole damn point I’ve been repeatedly making.
Sheesh.
As for barbaric and shameful. I guess you were out protesting the US attack on Iraq and the barbaric and shameful destruction of Fallujah then?
Yea - thought not. But of course that was somehow ‘different’ wasn’t it.
I live in Pakistan for about 20 years ending in the late 80s (first half of my life). During the last few years of that time, there was a wave of ethnic and religious violence, though it did not involve suicide bombs, just car bombs and such.
After a while people did get numbed to the danger to some extent. I remember a day in 1986 when there were “only” 12 deaths, and people said something like, well at least it is getting better. These people were at a tennis tournament, during a week in which over 300 people were killed in the same city (Karachi). And it was not as if there were parts of the city that were completely safe. To get back from the tennis club, I personally walked past a neighborhood that had sufferred a bomb blast. There were armed civilians searching everyone entering the neighborhood from the main road. But for the most part people kept going about their daily lives. Most schools reopened after one day. Our university never closed.
And yes Karachi become much more segregated by religious/ethnic groups after the bombings started. But part of the reason the bombings were so effective were that the neighborhoods were quite segregated in the first place.
I think of this a something like childhood diseases that would kill a large percentage of children at one time (and still do in some places, including Pakistan). Basically the death of a child is almost a non-event. There is the odd person who is traumatized by the death of their young child, but most people just carry on and just make more children.
Besides the barbarity, it is often the case that those of your own group will get caught in the blast also, especially if it happens in a market or something.
In any case, it only takes one person of good will to blow the whistle.
I said “encouraging their own people to strap on a bomb”. They don’t have the enemy strap on a bomb.
I think, perhaps, “Islamic Extremists”, “Drug Lords” of every country, The Catholic Church, Mormons, Republicans, Democrats, “Corprortists” and “Religiontists” of every stripe have something in common: "Let’s get the great “unwashed” behind us… emotionally ‘rabble-rouse’ them into some activity…and see where the dollars land. hehehe
Those who love jihads, Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Scientific fundamentalism, Democratic fundamentalism, Socialistic fundamentalist, Communistic fundamentalism…only love to turn the “masses” to their cause.
So… there it is.
It is a contest to FIGHT for the masses of the world who go to work every day to fight for THEIR cause.
To keep producing. To keep working. To keep fighting. To keep believing that “their” cause is worth fighting for.
Sensible people…
Shun these overloards and think for yourselves.
World-wide.
What common folks want is love. Family. Hoping that your children will have something “better” which may include more and better ‘material’ things, but always better connection to core values - however one may evaluate these things.
According to all we know and have been taught… no one wants WAR.
So why is Mankind so compelled toward it?
Go figure.
Maybe I’m naive…but it looks to me like, across the world…those with power and resources, not only look to protect their resources, but simultaneously MUST work to keep the “masses” convinced in their favor.
(Since, of course, (as in the days of the ‘Serfs’ and 'Lords) it is the MASSES who actually PRODUCE wealth.)
Let go for one minute, and ‘stupid’ folks may really realize that their work and strength are what enriches the folks who make the rules.
Does a ‘Lewis’ guy from the Bank of America who made over $5,000/hr REALLY believe that his contribution to humanity is worth that many times more than a minimum-wage worker?
Really?
He’s only a guy who wants to be acknowledged as ‘superior’ to his ‘mates.’
He has esoteric knowledge about finances - as Doctors do about medical issues… (and wouldn’t Doctors LOVE to have the same compensation for their specialized knowledge of medicine…!!!)
But all in all…it is the bloody, ungodly, uneducated, working masses …who create wealth for everyone.
OK…get a large loan for your business.
Where does that money come from?
The masses.
Who banked enough money for a financial institution to guarantee your business loan.
ALL of wealth comes from working folks.
Come to the “Game” with ideas, billions of dollars of investment from banks and financial institutions… and NO workers to carry out your ideas…and you have NOTHING.
The statistics on the back of those cards are going to be very predictable.
Avg. bombings : 1
Most bombings this season: 1
Best season score : 1
And they’re all rookie cards.
We have a similar thing in the USA called gang warfare. I live in an area where we have stickups and drive by shootings etc. Why did I choose to live there? That’s what I could afford. Not everyone has the resources to find a nice safe place. So you take what you can get an minimize the risks.
I will admit it’s not quite the same thing since gangs will generally leave you alone if you stay on the main areas, mind your business and don’t go out too late at night.
It’s surprising what you can get used to when you have to.
The OP’s problem, and that of almost everyone here, is that you assume the residents of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and so on back to London in the blitz, are stupid, panicky, irrational, and not working in their own best interests, whereas in the same situation you would be cool, calm, collected, rational and working in [what you are asserting as] your own best interests.
You simply have no idea what it is like, and have at core no right to judge the way they react to situations that you have never faced and will never face.
The sporadic nature of these bombings mean that you, like everyone, could fool yourself that “it won’t happen to you” because it hasn’t yet. the bomb dropped on the next street, or the suicide bomber hit the market two suburbs away, and in the core of your being you come to believe that that near miss means you are now immune. So you go about your daily business, keeping your head down, until it’s so near that it’s no longer a miss.
You omit to even consider the possibility that the common response to this situation is the most rational one. “They’ve DONE this area”, you would think to yourself, “it’s someone else’s turn now”. And for all practical purposes, you would be right.