# Suicide by Cop **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 25, 2014, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517 "2014-03-25T12:17:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/21 "2014-03-26T02:33:57Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > How is an epileptic seizure a danger to anyone? Nobody here has suggested that an epileptic seizure on the part of one person is in fact a danger to the rest of the general public. What’s required is for the officer to harbor a **reasonable belief** that a person is a danger to others. The article that was linked to upthread provides little detail about the circumstances of the shooting. During the investigation, the officer will have to explain why he believed there was a danger that justified application of lethal force; investigators will review the totality of the circumstances to determine whether that belief was reasonable or not. ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/22 "2014-03-26T14:23:04Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I do not know how strict it is but there is a continuum of force among police. Presence, verbal commands, physical pressure, harder physical pressure, less than lethal methods, lethal methods. > > So you have to point a gun at a cop and probably fire to get them to fire back. If you don’t, you have to wait until verbal commands, fists, batons and stun guns have all failed. > > As the article about NYPD shows though, even in a department that large the NYPD only killed 13 people in 2006. I’m certain they were threatened with guns or fired at far more than that in 2006. I’m surprised at their restraint. While those are the things that cops are trained in, it is not a checklist…they are free to jump over any of those steps if the situation has already escalated, except possibly informing the suspect that they are police officers. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/23 "2014-03-26T18:19:06Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Nobody here has suggested that an epileptic seizure on the part of one person is in fact a danger to the rest of the general public. What’s required is for the officer to harbor a **reasonable belief** that a person is a danger to others. Yes, somebody did make the claim, which is why I asked the question. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > …because both those things can cause a reasonable belief of imminent danger to the officer or to others. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/24 "2014-03-26T18:33:53Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > How is an epileptic seizure a danger to anyone? I didn’t say it was a danger to others, I said it could cause the reasonable belief that danger was imminent. The story’s pretty light on detail, but it reports that the man was running through the streets, nude and senseless. Say a nude, incoherent man runs at a police officer, failing to obey instructions to halt. Could that not cause a reasonable belief that danger to the officer was imminent? Bear in mind, the officer’s reacting only to what he sees, he’ll have no idea about the man’s neurological disorder or intent. ETA: By way of analogy: Two friends are shooting airsoft guns at one another, and one trips. A policeman rounds the corner just in time to see a man standing over another man, pointing what appears to be a firearm at him. Could this create a reasonable belief that danger to that person is imminent? Yes. Does that mean the person is actually in danger? No. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/25 "2014-03-26T19:20:16Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The story’s pretty light on detail, but it reports that the man was running through the streets, nude and senseless. Say a nude, incoherent man runs at a police officer, failing to obey instructions to halt. Could that not cause a reasonable belief that danger to the officer was imminent? How can anybody armed with a handgun, nightstick and tazer feel mortally threatened by someone who’s completely naked? Where’s he hiding the deadly weapon? Unless…the cop’s a yellow-bellied coward? (A-ha, there’s your answer…) ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/26 "2014-03-26T19:31:54Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > How can anybody armed with a handgun, nightstick and tazer feel mortally threatened by someone who’s completely naked? Where’s he hiding the deadly weapon? > > Unless…the cop’s a yellow-bellied coward? (A-ha, there’s your answer…) [The initial call to police](http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2014/01/03/family_of_naked_man_killed_in_ajax_plans_vigil_to_highlight_police_shootings_of_mentally_disturbed_people.html) reported that he had a metal bar. Some witnesses disagree, and the police are still investigating. Information on this particular incident is very sparse at the moment (though you seem to have reached your conclusion already), but speaking more broadly, a neurological episode like a seizure can absolutely create conditions that would make a person fear they were in imminent danger. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/27 "2014-03-26T19:34:55Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > [The initial call to police](http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2014/01/03/family_of_naked_man_killed_in_ajax_plans_vigil_to_highlight_police_shootings_of_mentally_disturbed_people.html) reported that he had a metal bar. Some witnesses disagree, and the police are still investigating. Information on this particular incident is very sparse at the moment (though you seem to have reached your conclusion already), but speaking more broadly, a neurological episode like a seizure can absolutely create conditions that would make a person fear they were in imminent danger. What if a random civilian shot the naked man, instead of a cop? Whose side would you take then? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/28 "2014-03-26T20:04:46Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > How can anybody armed with a handgun, nightstick and tazer feel mortally threatened by someone who’s completely naked? Where’s he hiding the deadly weapon? > > Unless…the cop’s a yellow-bellied coward? (A-ha, there’s your answer…) What an idiotic comment - a deranged person with bare hands and feet (and presumably teeth) can do a considerable amount of damage if allowed to close on and grapple with anyone, regardless of how well-armed. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/29 "2014-03-26T20:21:13Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > The Albuquerque Police came under heavy fire, so to speak, for this when I lived there. At that time there were several spectacular incidents of what appeared to be suicide by cop in a short space of time. The main one I remember was a guy who reportedly ran screaming at a group of them while brandishing a knife. The entire group stood there and just blasted the guy away. In that case in particular, many people thought maybe the guy could have been taken down fairly easily using nonlethal force. Which is all well and good until you get a cop with a knife in his neck. Dead crazy person will always trump dead cop. > [@buddha\_david](#): > > What if a random civilian shot the naked man, instead of a cop? Whose side would you take then? Probably the same. How would _you_ react to a deranged naked person, whom you have already been informed might be armed and dangerous, was charging directly at you? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/30 "2014-03-26T20:29:47Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > How would _you_ react to a deranged naked person, whom you have already been informed might be armed and dangerous, was charging directly at you? Tell him I can’t spare any change. Happens every day. But seriously…you don’t believe the police get more of a free pass than regular civilians? This thread alone is nearly proof of that. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/31 "2014-03-26T20:41:19Z")
I think you are attempting to steer this thread away from the original topic. Maybe a new thread would be appropriate? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/32 "2014-03-26T20:44:21Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > But seriously…you don’t believe the police get more of a free pass than regular civilians? Of course they get more of a free pass. If there’s some lunatic running around with a weapon, I (a regular civilian) get to run away, hide, make a phone call for someone to show up and deal with him. When that someone shows up, they’re not leaving until the lunatic is no longer a danger to the people around him. That someone doesn’t get to run away, he has to stay and deal with this potentially dangerous lunatic. We NEED people who will stay and deal with lunatics and criminals. So, they get somewhat more favorable treatment when those dealings go wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/33 "2014-03-26T21:21:04Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > What if a random civilian shot the naked man, instead of a cop? Whose side would you take then? I can’t take either side in this case, there’s not nearly enough information available. We don’t have the police’s side of the story, witness statements, barely anything at all. I don’t know how Canadian police procedures work, but presumably there will be a formal report when the investigation is completed. Until then, no informed conclusion can be reached. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/34 "2014-03-26T21:48:00Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Tell him I can’t spare any change. Happens every day. Flippancy is not a replacement for reason. > [@](#): > > But seriously…you don’t believe the police get more of a free pass than regular civilians? This thread alone is nearly proof of that. We’re not talking about Oprichniks, here. To get what you’re calling a “free pass”, police officers have to deal with people and situations most of us prefer to avoid. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/35 "2014-03-26T22:49:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > To get what you’re calling a “free pass”, police officers have to deal with people and situations most of us prefer to avoid. What, you don’t believe some cops apply for the job purely for the sake of thrill and power? At least (to drag this thread, kicking and screaming, back on topic) in cases of suicide-by-cop, they’re completely justified to defend themselves, up to and including the use of lethal force. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/36 "2014-03-27T00:12:04Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > What, you don’t believe some cops apply for the job purely for the sake of thrill and power? I don’t believe you get to slide from “the police” to “some cops” and not get called on it. Sure, there are abuses, and individuals who should not be in uniform. They’re greatly outnumbered by people who do an unpleasant job reasonably well. > [@](#): > > At least (to drag this thread, kicking and screaming, back on topic) in cases of suicide-by-cop, they’re completely justified to defend themselves, up to and including the use of lethal force. Good, but my opinion of your earlier statement remains unchanged. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/37 "2014-03-27T02:28:41Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > “Rock up” means “to arrive”. For whom? Is this a regionalism, like “breaking bad”? I’ve never heard it. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/38 "2014-03-27T02:35:03Z")
It’s a common usage in Australia. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/39 "2014-03-27T03:18:02Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > What, you don’t believe some cops apply for the job purely for the sake of thrill and power? > > At least (to drag this thread, kicking and screaming, back on topic) in cases of suicide-by-cop, they’re completely justified to defend themselves, up to and including the use of lethal force. As someone who has worked alongside police officers on an almost everyday basis for the last 6 years in my capacity as an EMT, I can assure you that a person does not need to be brandishing a weapon to pose a threat to people. And any report of a man behaving in a manner that could be considered odd or unnatural is going to be looked at carefully. Sure there are a few cops in the world that are lazy. Or bloodthirsty. Or careless. But the ones that are, I would say, make up an extremely low percentage (I’m not looking at any data to make this statement, it’s based solely on my experiences with law enforcement) of the total. And I don’t think you can look at a situation like this and knee-jerk into either the cop is a coward, or a corrupt officer looking to exert his power. Most of the cops that I work with (and, in the interest of full disclosure, I will also state that my brother is a lieutenant corrections officer at Kentucky State Reformatory, and my father and grandfather were both career firefighters. Some may think that this makes me biased towards the civil servants. I suppose you could be right) are good men and women. They’re faced with doing a damn-near impossible job while being hideously underpaid, overworked, and underresourced. They face long hours doing a job that most of us couldn’t do. It’s a thankless job. It’s a job that requires them to see people on the worst day of their lives. And sometimes on the last. It’s a job that, if it’s done correctly, no one thinks twice about. However, if something goes wrong, it’s all over the news. Cops, firefighters, and EMTs all have a brotherhood I admit that freely. I don’t put myself in the same group as cops and firefighters, though. They’re braver than I am. I’m more than willing to work on a patient, but I don’t run into a burning building or take the chance on being shot to do it. Those police officers you’re castigating are willing to fucking die for you. They’re willing to take a chance they will never go home again so that you - someone they’ve never met - can go home to your family. How fucking dare you, you [expletives deleted to keep me from getting warned, and from turning this into a Pit thread] to talk about them like they owe _you_ for the privilege? If you survey any random police officers, I’m sure that the majority of them would tell you that all they want at the end of their shift is to be able to go home to their loved ones. That’s probably close to all you want to do when you get off work. But they face threats that most people can’t fathom. And they do it willingly. And anyone who could conceivably do them harm has to be dealt with. I have a friend of the family ([Vincent Stopher](http://murderpedia.org/male.S/s/stopher-vincent.htm), in case you care) who is on death row awaiting execution because he grabbed the pistol of a police officer who was responding to Stopher’s address, and shot the officer in the face, killing him. He attempted to shoot at least two more people before he was finally subdued. His last words while being placed in the ambulance were, “I hope that cop dies.” When Deputy Gregory Hans stepped out of his car, Stopher was unarmed And clothed, so he maybe didn’t give off the “weird and dangerous” vibe that the naked man running around was. But I guarantee you one thing (and this is odd coming from me, as I’ve always come down on the “gun control” side of the argument). If that was you standing there instead of the cop, I’m sure you wouldn’t let the weird naked guy get closer and closer until you could judge with 100% accuracy that you were in no danger. You’d have the gun ready, and if he kept coming after you said “stop,” you’d empty your clip into him. People under the influence of drugs can [shrug](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8g4L2WQTh0) [off](http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/inwood-man-shot-killed-cops-hit-taser-yanked-cops-article-1.186158) [taser](http://www.militianews.com/want-immune-tasers-just-wear-carbon-fiber-clothing/) [blasts](http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/2012/10/09/15/41/naked-houdini-shrugs-off-stun-gun) (FYI: these clips may be NSFW since they feature profanity and, in at least one case, the naked butt of a man). ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517/40 "2014-03-27T05:09:25Z")
i’ll like to see what people defending the police have to say about the Albuquerque incident. > **[Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man](https://www.salon.com/2014/03/24/albuquerque_cops_assault_and_kill_camping_homeless_man/)** > > Video shows officers assaulting and then killing a mentally ill man who was illegally camping the police chief has also declared the shooting as justified despite video evidence. this is not an isolated incident either - "Albuquerque officers have shot more persons than the NYPD, a department serving a city 16-times larger … " [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-cop/684517.md?page=3)