# Suicide by Living Will **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348 "2009-10-02T15:13:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/1 "2009-10-02T15:13:15Z")
I was reading the following article and thought it was worthy of kicking around here on GD. The upshot, essentially, is a woman drank antifreeze in order to commit suicide. She then called an ambulance and upon arrival at the hospital (or somewhere in there) handed the doctors a Living Will she had written explicitly saying she refused ALL medical treatment. The doctors felt that was sufficient and, basically, let her die. > [@](#): > > (Oct. 1) – Doctors who let a 26-year-old woman die after she swallowed antifreeze acted within the law, a coroner has ruled. > > Kerrie Wooltorton, of Norwich in eastern England, is believed to be the first person to use a living will to commit suicide, The Guardian newspaper reported Thursday. > > She wrote the document on Sept. 15, 2007, three days before she poisoned herself. She called an ambulance, which took her to Norfolk and Norwich University Hospital. There, she gave doctors a letter addressed to “To whom this may concern.” > > “If I come into hospital regarding an overdose or any attempt of my life, I would like for NO life saving treatment to be given,” she wrote in the letter, which Sky News printed on its Web site. > > SOURCE: [News, Politics, Sports, Mail & Latest Headlines - AOL.com](http://news.aol.com/article/coroner-says-doctors-had-to-let-kerrie/697884?icid=main%7Caim%7Cdl1%7Clink4%7Chttp%3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Farticle%2Fcoroner-says-doctors-had-to-let-kerrie%2F697884) For myself I find myself conflicted over what I would consider the proper response for the doctors in this case. I do not think the doctors should be punished here since this is clearly a new one with no good guidelines. Still, in the future, should doctors go ahead and treat an attempted suicide regardless of what the person doing it wishes and how clear they have been about their wishes? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/2 "2009-10-02T15:23:50Z")
I think the Doctors acted appropriately. She was lucid enough to make her decision. She clearly wanted to die. Though why she chose such a gruesome and painful way to die, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/3 "2009-10-02T15:27:43Z")
Personally, I’m okay with the concept of people being in control of their own lives, including the end of their lives. What I’m not okay with is calling an ambulance, having yourself taken to a hospital, basically making a spectacle of your suicide and causing a lot of grief and conflict among the people who have made it their job to save your life. Go shoot yourself quietly in the woods, please. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/4 "2009-10-02T15:58:44Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Personally, I’m okay with the concept of people being in control of their own lives, including the end of their lives. > > What I’m not okay with is calling an ambulance, having yourself taken to a hospital, basically making a spectacle of your suicide and causing a lot of grief and conflict among the people who have made it their job to save your life. Go shoot yourself quietly in the woods, please. You beat me to it. For that matter, my thought is that her calling the ambulance should overrule the letter. Once you call the ambulance for your own self, you should _expect_ that they’ll try to save your life. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/5 "2009-10-02T16:22:34Z")
Do Living Wills require psych evals or verification of mental competence or witnessing or anything like that? Can you just write ‘Don’t help me’ on a piece of paper and sign it and no one can do anything to help you? ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/6 "2009-10-02T17:40:44Z")
What does antifreeze do to kill you? I am unfamiliar with death by antifreeze. sorry to hijack ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/7 "2009-10-02T17:50:34Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > What does antifreeze do to kill you? I am unfamiliar with death by antifreeze. > sorry to hijack Found this (sounds unpleasant): > [@](#): > > Renal failure, acidosis and hypocalcemia may follow the intake of ethylene glycol. There can be widespread tissue injury in the kidney, brain, liver, and blood vessels. The result can be fatal. > > SOURCE: [http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=15497](http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=15497) ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/8 "2009-10-02T17:52:06Z")
Anti-freeze is mostly ethylene glycol, which is metabolized in the body to glycolic acid, which causes acidosis, and eventually to oxalic acid, which is toxic in its own right. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/9 "2009-10-02T17:56:26Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Do Living Wills require psych evals or verification of mental competence or witnessing or anything like that? Can you just write ‘Don’t help me’ on a piece of paper and sign it and no one can do anything to help you? Looks like “it depends” depending on where you live (including differing state-to-state). This happened in Great Britain so I do not know. Reading the bit below (specifically the last sentence) I would presume US doctors would need to try to save you since your survival is not clearly “hopeless”. And if it is hopeless then beyond making you comfortable not sure what they are expected to do. > [@](#): > > Generally, a living will describes certain life prolonging treatments. You, the declarant, indicate which treatments you do or do not want applied to you in the event you either suffer from a terminal illness or are in a permanent vegetative state. A living will does not become effective unless you are incapacitated; until then you’ll be able to say what treatments you do or don’t want. They usually require a certification by your doctor and another doctor that you are either suffering from a terminal illness or permanently unconscious before they become effective as well. This means that if you suffer a heart attack, for example, but otherwise do not have any terminal illness and are not permanently unconscious, a living will does not have any effect. You would still be resuscitated, even if you had a living will indicating that you don’t want life prolonging procedures. A living will is only used when your ultimate recovery is hopeless. > > SOURCE: [What is a Living Will?](http://www.alllaw.com/articles/wills_and_trusts/article7.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/10 "2009-10-02T18:07:11Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > Anti-freeze is mostly ethylene glycol, which is metabolized in the body to glycolic acid, which causes acidosis, and eventually to oxalic acid, which is toxic in its own right. Soooo, Anti-freeze isn’t poisenous until \*after \*you drink it? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/11 "2009-10-02T18:10:45Z")
Funny, but yeah. The standard treatment for antifreeze poisoning is to administer large doses of ethyl alcohol, to block the metabolization of ethylene glycol. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/12 "2009-10-02T18:17:01Z")
Nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/13 "2009-10-02T19:01:34Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Do Living Wills require psych evals or verification of mental competence or witnessing or anything like that? Can you just write ‘Don’t help me’ on a piece of paper and sign it and no one can do anything to help you? In Vermont, I filled out the papers and had my neighbors sign that they witnessed me sign. That’s it. You can choose to register the Living Will with the state but you don’t have to. I don’t understand this case either–if she wanted to be sure she’d die, don’t call the ambulance. If it was to get pain treatment while she died, she could have chosen a different method to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/14 "2009-10-02T19:52:58Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > I don’t understand this case either–if she wanted to be sure she’d die, don’t call the ambulance. If it was to get pain treatment while she died, she could have chosen a different method to begin with. Sounded like she didn’t want to die alone nor did she want to die at home for some reason. Not saying it makes much sense, just what I gathered from the article. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/15 "2009-10-02T19:57:00Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Sounded like she didn’t want to die alone nor did she want to die at home for some reason. > > Not saying it makes much sense, just what I gathered from the article. Rather selfish of her, really. She inflicted her grisly suicide on those whose avocation is fighting that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/16 "2009-10-02T19:57:10Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > If it was to get pain treatment while she died, she could have chosen a different method to begin with. Let’s assume that the suicidee doesn’t want to be discovered by family or when she’s all gross and smelly, and that she doesn’t want to leave behind a blood-spattered mess. Dying in a hospital is friendly to your neighbors and family. Death by poisoning is more-or-less clean. While as if you blow the top of your head off or jumped off the roof of a moderately tall building, then you’ve just inconvenienced a lot people who are in no way expected to have to deal with that sort of thing. Doctors and hospitals are expected to and set up to deal with a dying person and everything that goes on afterward. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/17 "2009-10-02T20:16:46Z")
Isn’t there some kind of public policy exception to any document of this type? For example, what if I put in my living will, “I direct the doctor to call the local escort service and have fellatio performed on me as I depart this life, the cost to be paid from my estate” then clearly that can’t be mandated to be honored. And since assisted suicide is illegal, wouldn’t that be the same? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/18 "2009-10-02T20:20:58Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Isn’t there some kind of public policy exception to any document of this type? For example, what if I put in my living will, “I direct the doctor to call the local escort service and have fellatio performed on me as I depart this life, the cost to be paid from my estate” then clearly that can’t be mandated to be honored. > > And since assisted suicide is illegal, wouldn’t that be the same? I beleive you can only state which treatments the AREN’T allowed to perform on you, not what they MUST perform on you. In fact this NHS hospital website specifically says: > [@](#): > > A Living Will cannot be used to: > > ``` > * Refuse basic nursing care such as basic hygiene and pain relief > * Stop staff offering you food and drink by mouth > * Request euthanasia > * **Request unreasonable treatment** > > ``` [http://www.christie.nhs.uk/patients/booklets/text/livingwills/default.aspx#7](http://www.christie.nhs.uk/patients/booklets/text/livingwills/default.aspx#7) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/19 "2009-10-02T22:03:30Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Doctors and hospitals are expected to and set up to deal with a dying person and everything that goes on afterward. But she held medical professionals “hostage” and forced them to watch her voluntarily end her own life, absent any grave or terminal illness. That’s **not** what doctors and nurses are expected to deal with. Such cases will definitely contribute to staff burnout. She could have contacted the local Hemlock society to learn about better options. Like seeking a less permanent solution to her temporary problems, to start with. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348/20 "2009-10-02T22:31:49Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > But she held medical professionals “hostage” and forced them to watch her voluntarily end her own life, absent any grave or terminal illness. That’s **not** what doctors and nurses are expected to deal with. > > Such cases will definitely contribute to staff burnout. At the moment there isn’t a place where one can reasonably go and off himself without causing someone a hassle. Personally, I’d be perfectly happy to have a few places in the US where a person walks in, slaps down a $100 and then can sit back in a chair, pull a lever, and have a guillotine blade come down to lop off their head. I don’t see that happening anytime soon, so either way you’re talking about balancing evils. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-living-will/512348.md?page=2)