# Suicide by Text girl convicted. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 17, 2017, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166 "2017-06-17T05:14:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/161 "2017-08-12T00:52:24Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I will claim it right now. But obviously I don’t think anyone should be prosecuted for it. They have, I strongly believe, the constitutional right to inflict emotional pain on me with their repeated electronic messages. You should find out what state they live in, and see if that state has cyber bullying laws. Then contact the police and have them arrested. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/162 "2017-08-12T00:54:53Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > You should find out what state they live in, and see if that state has cyber bullying laws. Then contact the police and have them arrested. That would definitely make me a hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/163 "2017-08-12T01:02:49Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > That would definitely make me a hypocrite. Maybe, but you would be using the existing laws to protect someone’s feelings. That overrides any sense of hypocrisy you might feel. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/164 "2017-08-12T02:00:53Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m not sure what point you think you made there. Of course, physical bullying is a thing that should be controlled. Words on a message board that can be ignored? No. I don’t even think you know what the fuck you’re talking about any more. You very clearly stated earlier that non-physical bullying wasn’t a thing. Later, you very clearly stated that “I didn’t say it wasn’t a “thing” I think it’s a stupid thing.”. It’s like arguing with Dio when he’d forget what he’d say and then flat out deny it even when quoted. Can we call this the Manson show? > [@Slash1972](#): > > I see. So you don’t actually care about what you consider bullying, you just want to argue a point that you think other people on this message board want to hear. Good for you! I’m still not the fucking internet police. I also think drinking and driving is bad, but I don’t hang around in bars trying to wrestle car keys away from people. Just cuz I think something is wrong or bad or illegal, I’m not sure what logic your brain is going through that makes you leap to the conclusion that I’m therefore required to put an end to it. **Actually, I’m calling you on that.** \*There are always threads in the Pit that are “bullying” Why don’t you go into them and tell people to stop? \* Why do you think that I should have to go to the pit and tell people to stop based on anything I said here? Or more generally, just because I think cyber-bullying is real, why should I be required to end it? _So you don’t actually care about what you consider bullying_ Why, exactly, do you think that since I’m not going to make an attempt to stop what you’ve decided is bullying in the SDMB pit, that I therefore don’t actually care about what I consider bullying? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/165 "2017-08-12T02:07:01Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Who knows? I don’t care. But it seems you do. Did the kid from the original story claim he suffered emotional harm? Is that a requirement in your eyes for something to be considered bullying? If you don’t care, why do you keep bringing it up? The kid from the original story suffered physical harm which I believe is a direct result of the girl’s actions. I don’t know what emotional harm he suffered, but it seems very plausible that she’s also responsible for that. > [@Slash1972](#): > > (aside from the discussion) If you actually did that (and I am not accusing you of NOT doing it), then you are a pretty good person. Thanks! I am mailing it probably tomorrow. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I will claim it right now. I’m sorry to hear that. That’s not right. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/166 "2017-08-12T03:54:56Z")
I notice that no one ever seems to have any response to the stuff I quoted from _West Virginia v._ _Barnett_. I’m going to take that as a tacit admission that applying the law this way is unconstitutional by the applicable SCOTUS precedents, even if you might wish for a constitutional amendment making it otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/167 "2017-08-12T09:25:50Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > [All the texts, PDF](https://htv-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com/files/carter-exhibit-30-1497356322.pdf) Thanks for this. Fascinating stuff. IMO a lot of it makes \*\*TruCelt’s \*\*case pretty well. Here are some annotated “highlights” of the text conversations (just stuff I found while skimming; I didn’t read everything by any means): 6-1-14 > [@](#): > > **Michelle:** I know u have certain friends that love you too and support you, and if u don’t then you will find them. But I’m so happy that you realized that Conrad that’s great and so important. Like you’re absolutely right. If u don’t love yourself and accept yourself for who u are, then no one will. This is the first step in getting people to like you. If your confident with yourself and can accept who you are, then all the people who don’t accept you can go suck a fat one because u don’t need them in your life > You are normal, you just have a harder time talking to people. Its not a bad thing and you’ll fix it in time. But being different isn’t a bad thing. I’m different haha and I have issues but I can aaccept that because it’s who I am > **Conrad:** like people are my “friends” but never ask me to hang out. and if I ask the people to hang out I feel it would be awkward and I just don’t try > **Michelle:** Yeah I know exactly what u mean haha we are very similar this is like the story of my life. Like yeah I have “friends” but they never really ask to hangout. Like some do occasionally but the majority of the time they don’t. And yeah I feel like if they wanted to hang they would ask. I say that all the time but sometimes u just gotta face your fears and ask. I’ve asked lately and it surprised me like people do wanna hangout. Sometimes they feel the same way about asking you. So you should try! The worst they will say is no. But I understand completely why it’s hard and upsetting. You feel alone and like no one likes you I get it. I feel that way a lot, like no one cares. But people do care about you Conrad. You know that. So try asking someone to hang out, go to a Sox game or something fun. I’d go to a game with you if you want. Like I’d honestly hang out with you whenever, all you got as do is ask.[…] > > **Michelle:** Okay well I’m happy you’re starting you’re medication. Is it for depression?[…] > > **Michelle:** Accept who u are and let it shine. Show them who you are, they’d like you. By being shy and quiet , they obviously think you’re not confident and boring. You gotta speak up and have fun, be yourself. They’d like you > **Conrad:** See that’s what you don’t get about social anxiety, it’s extremely hard to open up because you draw a blank and think of so many things at once and it’s just uncomfortable > **Michelle:** I’m sorry I’m trying hard to understand I really am I’m trying to help you > **Michelle:** Read this article— [http://m.helpguide.org/articles/anxiety/social-anxiety-socialphobia](http://m.helpguide.org/articles/anxiety/social-anxiety-socialphobia) > **Conrad:** omg where did you find this > **Michelle:** I researched it for you > **Michelle:** So next time when you’re in a social situation that you’re uncomfortable in, breathe and stay there > Face your fear. You can do it > **Michelle:** Have you thought about getting professional help? Like I think I’m gonna go away to a place for my eating disorder to help me overcome it and stuff. The place also deals with phsyciatric problems and disorders too so they can help you over some this. I think it will really help you. And we can go together so we will be there for each other > **Conrad:** where are you going > **Michelle:** Its called McLean hospital in Belmont Mass. I honestly think it would be so good for you and we would get thru our issues together. Think about it. You aren’t gonna get better on your own, you know it no matter how many times you tell yourself you are. You need professional help like me, people who know how to treat it and fix it Reading this first couple pages paints a picture of someone who genuinely cared for Conrad and seemed to be trying harder to help him than he was to help her–or himself. 6-18-14 > [@](#): > > **Michelle:** Are you actually going to get help? Go to where I went its the best hospital in Massachusetts for any kind of physicatric problem > **Conrad:** what’s it called > **Michelle:** McLean. Its in Belmont Mass. Its honestly such a great place and I’m so confident that it will really help you. I’ll visit you a lot too > **Conrad:** Ohhh maybe > \*\*Michelle:\*\*I really think you should babe > **Conrad:** I don’t even feel like it. it’s probably gonna make me worse offI 6-29-14 > [@](#): > > **Conrad:** well I don’t feel good about anything. and nothing makes me happy anymore > so I’m stuck in this deep hole. > **Michelle:** I’m trying my best to dig you out > **Conrad:** I don’t wanna be dug out > **Michelle:** Stop it > **Conrad:** I don’t think I can be > **Michelle:** I don’t know what you want me to do anymore > **Conrad:** Nothing you’ve done plenty > **Michelle:** Im not giving up on you, it’s just every time I try to help you you don’t listen A little later that day, we learn that Conrad emotionally blackmailed Michelle to keep her from going to his parents or someone else to warn that he is contemplating suicide: > [@](#): > > **Conrad:** I’ve been looking online, and there’s no 100% definite way of killing yourself, and I don’t want to go through hospitalizations again > and the only way id hate you is if you told people about this. u hear me? > **Michelle:** I’m not gonna tell anyone > Because if I did then you’d have to go to a hospital and I know that’s not what you want He also tells her, basically, to just stop trying to help him in the socially prescribed way, of trying to keep him from killing himself: > [@](#): > > **Conrad:** can I tell you something > **Michelle:** Yes of course you don’t need to ask > **Conrad:** there’s nothing anyone can do for me that’s gonna make me wanna live. it’s very bad to hear, but I want to let you know that. truthfully. I haven’t been happy with myself ever. I have split personalities and I don’t know who I am, I try to copy everyone else and I’m just never gonna be me. because I don’t like me. I wanna be something different but I can’t > **Michelle:** Why can’t you? > **Conrad:** I don’t know how > **Michelle:** Thank you for letting me know that. And I’m sorry what I’ve been doing isn’t enough, you know I’m trying my absolute hardest. June 29 is really a key transitional day, as it also includes this crucial exchange: > [@](#): > > **Michelle:** You say you wanna die so bad Conrad, but you aren’t willing to try any ways to die. You said nothing is 100%, so all the kids in the world who have committed suicide knew that too, But they tried and were successful > **Conrad:** I just don’t wanna fail again. that’s what I’m scared of > **Michelle:** You can’t live your life in fear > **Conrad:** But there’s been far more unsuccessful attempts > **Michelle:** And obviously you don’t wanna die then because you wouldn’t be scared to try. You’d wanna try anything as much as you could > **Conrad:** I guess you’re partially right. I’m just still researching and hopefully find a better way. I really do tho. I don’t wanna be in the mental hospital again. that’s why > **Michelle:** But the mental hospital would help you. I know you don’t think it would but I’m telling you, if you give them a chance, they can save your life > Part of me wants you to try something and fail just so you can go get help > **Conrad:** It doesn’t help. trust me > **Michelle:** So what are you gonna do then? Keep being all talk and no action and everyday go thru saing how badly you wanna kill yourself? Or are you gonna try to get better? > **Conrad:** I can’t get better I already made my decision. 7-1-14 Another key moment: > [@](#): > > **Conrad:** well I’m prob getting you depressed so I can stop talkin to you if u want > **Michelle:** No stop! I love you. It’s not anything to do with you. Its just me, I don’t think I’m gonna kill myself but I’m definitely depressed > not because of you tho at all. Its just my eating disorder > I just want to make sure you’re actually gonna do this, or if you’re all talk. Because I need to get myself prepared. I tried the best I could and I can never talk you out of it Maybe the most frustrating thing is that earlier on July 1, he talks about how he smoked weed and it basically worked as medicinal marijuana: > [@](#): > > **Conrad:** It’s probably bad that I did smoke, but I felt a lot better about myself being high. and I know it’s not the best for you. but it really helped me get through 4 hours without even thinking about killing myself. > and then I went to bed. and reality hit me when i woke up. and I know I’m not where I wanna be at, but last night felt really great. I guess when I smoke things change with me, it happened last winter my mom told me that I was like a different person. idk if I should continue to smoke or not. but I need something to get me away from negative thoughts and that’s the only way that actually worked[…] > It made me feel on top of the world. it’s weird, but I know I just feel it would help me focus and concentrate, because it does. it really helps. and you think about things you wouldn’t normally think about every day. it brings things from the past back into your memory. idk i just felt really good by smoking and during that time I played 4 hours of video games and I actually enjoyed it, like I haven’t actually enjoyed something in awhile. idk just I felt optimistic about the future, and happy who I was. and trust me I haven’t felt that good in awhile. I haven’t read every message, but I’ve read a lot of it, and this is the only moment I saw where it really looked like there was hope for the kid. And Michelle squashes it! D’oh. But she does so not–I believe–because of any homicidal agenda, but because she has internalized a lot of DARE propaganda: > [@](#): > > **Michelle:** Smoking takes 6 minutes away from your life, so every time you smoke, that’s 6 minutes less that you get to be alive, 6 minutes less that you have a chance at getting better, 6 minutes less that I get to spend with you. Smoking messes up your brain, your heart, and your lungs. I know you feel great and happy when you smoke, but it’s actually doing you more damage. You just need to find something healthy that makes you feel just as good[…] > Would you rather spend your life smoking blunts and being high all the time so you don’t have to face your problems like a man? Because that’s basically what you’re doing. Or do you wanna actually take your problems and look them straight in the eye, tell them its your life and you’re the boss, and actually do something about getting better? > **Conrad:** it’s not the answer but it could lead me in the right direction > **Michelle:** whats the right direction that smoking can possible lead you in? > **Conrad:** being happy. that’s all I wavt > **Michelle:** Do you not see how messed up this is? > **Conrad:** I think it’s a good idea > **Michelle:** When you’re high all the time, you aren’t you! I can’t have a conversation with you because you’ll have no idea what’s going on and you say random stupid stuff. I don’t want you to become that person, I don’t want you to become someone you think you want to be > **Conrad:** it’s the opposite tho, I like who I am when I’m high… it helps me be me the real me and get me focused and not think about other things. > **Michelle:** You’re gonna end up getting addicted to it tho > The real you is someone who’s high all the time? > You’re so much more than this Siiigghhh. Not only did he sound more hopeful, he also had some fight in him for the first time! But she persisted with her “just say no” routine, and he finally gave up. 7-7-14 > [@](#): > > **Conrad:** if you were in my position. honestly what would you do > \*\*Michelle:\*\*I would get help. That’s just me tho. When I have a serious problem like that, my first instinct is to get help because I know I can’t do it on my own > **Conrad:** Well it’s too late I already gave up. I meant like which way > based on pain/time and everythin > **Michelle:** Ohhh okay well I’d do the CO. That’s honestly the best way. And i know it’s hard to find a tank so if you could use another car or something than do that. > But next I’d try the bag or hanging > Hanging is painless and takes like a second if you do it right Does this really fit the description so many of painted, of a guy reluctant to end his life and a girlfriend sadistically egging him on? Looks to me like she still is saying the best route would be to seek help, but he won’t have any of it–so in her naïve, teenage way, she is just trying to help him do what he wants. From earlier in that conversation on July 7: > [@](#): > > **Conrad:** I Hate myself so much. I can’t take it > **Michelle:** Ihate seeing you this way. I want to help you but I know that my help doesn’t work > **Conrad:** It’s comforting, I appreciate it. I just don’t deserve it I think this fits very well into the idea that he was kind of a toxic parasite dragging her down. She had her own issues, she wanted both of them to seek help, but he wasn’t into that approach. And so both to stop being dragged down by him, and because she cared about him and was more and more convinced by his negativity that this was the only possible release from his pain, she took on the role of a kind of coach, or a “you can do it!” cheerleader. Keep in mind that at this point he had already tried and failed (with a plastic bag, sounds like), and (also on July 7) expressed his intense fear of failing in a way that leaves him crippled or some kind of vegetable: > [@](#): > > **Michelle:** So what are you gonna do? Because you can’t live this way anymore > **Conrad:** I really don’t know what to do. like I’m afraid of failing and causing way more damage to myself and looking like a fool for the rest of my life… UHhhhhh 7-8-14 > [@](#): > > **Michelle:** Yeah, just wanted to let you know I don’t think it’s selfish. I understand > **Conrad:** good because I’m that miserable 7-9-14 > [@](#): > > **Michelle:** Are you scared or are you ready? > **Conrad:** not scared at all: I’m gonna be asleep > real question, are u scared > **Michelle:** Yeah true. And of course I am > **Conrad:** Well keep thinking about it is gonna just kill me. so might as well do it > **Michelle:** Yeah I mean I know it will work, I’m not scared of it not working because it will. I’m just scared of losing you and having to live without you 7-10-14 Conrad is out in his truck, where he has brought a generator to make the carbon monoxide. > [@](#): > > **Conrad:** not working oh boy > **Michelle:** I knew this would happen > **Conrad:** haha I’m joking > **Michelle:** Don’t joke haha. Is it on? > **Conrad:** yeah > **Michelle:** How long til you die ☹ > **Conrad:** idk it could be in 5/30 min > **Michelle:** I love you so much > **Conrad:** I love you too > **Michelle:** so this is serious right like the thing is on and you’re gonna die soon? > Cornad please answer me > Conrad please answer me right now you’re scaring me > **Conrad:** I’m ok > **Michelle:** You didn’t do it? > What happened > **Conrad:** I don’t wanna talk to anyone > it started and then it shut off At this point, I can’t blame her for thinking maybe he was just dicking her around, talking suicide as a way to manipulate her emotionally. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/168 "2019-02-06T19:10:06Z")
[Conviction upheld for woman who urged boyfriend’s suicide](https://apnews.com/abd449bd66274f698e9ff4d4c2247a8e) > [@](#): > > A young woman who as a teenager encouraged her boyfriend through dozens of text messages to kill himself is responsible for his suicide, Massachusetts’ highest court ruled Wednesday in upholding her involuntary manslaughter conviction. > > The Supreme Judicial Court said in a unanimous decision in the novel case that Michelle Carter’s actions caused Conrad Roy III to die in a truck filled with toxic gas in a deserted parking lot nearly five years ago. > [@](#): > > A spokesman for the Bristol County District Attorney’s office said it will file a motion in the coming days asking the trial court to impose Carter’s jail sentence now that the state high court has ruled. > > “This case is a tragedy for all of the people impacted by this case,” District Attorney Thomas Quinn III said in a statement. “However, as the court found in two separate decisions, her conduct was wanton and reckless, and caused the death of Conrad Roy,” he said. > [@](#): > > The juvenile court judge who convicted Carter in 2017 said she caused Roy’s death when she told him to get back in after he climbed out of his truck as it was filling with carbon monoxide, telling her he was scared. The judge said Carter had a duty to call the police or Roy’s family when she knew he was killing himself. > > Carter’s lawyers told the Supreme Judicial Court the only evidence Carter instructed Roy to get back in the truck was a long, rambling text she sent to a friend two months later in which she called Roy’s death her fault. > > They also argued she can’t be convicted because of her words alone, noting she wasn’t with him when he killed himself and didn’t provide him with the means to do it. Her attorney said during the hearing in October that there was no evidence it would have made a difference if she had called for help, arguing she didn’t even know where his truck was parked. > > “We can all see from the text messages that Michelle Carter did not force Conrad Roy to kill himself,” Marx said at the time. > > But the court rejected Carter’s argument that she’s being punished for protected free speech. The justices said Carter preyed upon Roy’s “well-known weaknesses, fears, anxieties and promises” and overcame the “mentally ill, vulnerable” young man’s will to live. > > “We are therefore not punishing words alone, as the defendant claims, but reckless or wanton words causing death,” Kafker wrote. I assume that this will be appealed all the way up to the SCOTUS, tho. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/169 "2019-02-06T19:18:08Z")
Would like to see this apply to a wide variety of school bullying. Although it may be difficult to prove cause and effect in some cases. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/170 "2019-02-07T06:01:12Z")
That’s an understatement! I continue to believe that people have the right to tell other people things, even if they are horrible things we would never want them to say. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/171 "2019-02-07T06:39:35Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/172 "2019-02-07T11:50:05Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > That’s an understatement! I continue to believe that people have the right to tell other people things, even if they are horrible things we would never want them to say. Does this include fraud? How do you distinguish between manipulating someone to take their money (which pretty much everyone thinks is a crime) and manipulating them for the specific purpose that they commit suicide? I’m curious if you see one differently than the other, and if so, why. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/173 "2019-02-07T16:45:50Z")
Words have consequences. This wasn’t a random, why don’t you go kill yourself? epithet directed at a stranger. That is protected by free speech. Michelle Carter took advantage of a close relationship with a deeply troubled young man. She manipulated him into suicide. This is not protected by free speech. I’m thankful the courts see it that way. [https://www.google.com/amp/s/people.com/crime/michelle-carter-suicide-text-case-urging-boyfriend-suicide-texts/amp/](https://www.google.com/amp/s/people.com/crime/michelle-carter-suicide-text-case-urging-boyfriend-suicide-texts/amp/) > [@](#): > > Roy was a “vulnerable, confused, mentally ill, 18-year-old” who had stepped out of his truck as it filled with carbon monoxide,” Kafker wrote. “But then in this weakened state he was badgered back into the gas-infused truck by the defendant, his girlfriend.” > > “After she convinced him to get back into the carbon monoxide filled truck,” he wrote, “she did absolutely nothing to help him: she did not call for help or tell him to get out of the truck as she listened to him choke and die.” ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/174 "2019-02-07T17:03:37Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > That’s an understatement! I continue to believe that people have the right to tell other people things, even if they are horrible things we would never want them to say. How do you feel about penalties for [inciting a riot?](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2102) Urging an angry mob to burn down a building or kill a person is a horrible thing we would never want someone to say. And it is, I think, quite reasonably illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/175 "2019-02-07T17:09:34Z")
Is committing suicide a crime in Massachusetts? ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/176 "2019-02-07T18:10:54Z")
Geez, she only got 2 1/2 years, and only had to do 15 months of it in actual prison. If she had just gone in and done her time when she was sentenced, she’d be out on probation by now. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/177 "2019-02-07T22:36:03Z")
I wonder if the “lock her up!” camp has read the text excerpts I quoted above? :dubious: Many times previously she had tried to encourage him not to kill himself, to get help. He rebuffed these efforts. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Does this include fraud? How do you distinguish between manipulating someone to take their money (which pretty much everyone thinks is a crime) and manipulating them for the specific purpose that they commit suicide? > > I’m curious if you see one differently than the other, and if so, why. I do see them differently. She was not lying to him for her financial benefit. Those who believe this is a crime are saying that if her honest opinion is that his emotional pain makes suicide the best option, she is legally obligated to lie. Really? What other things are people required to lie about, at the penalty of prosecution for being honest? > [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > How do you feel about penalties for [inciting a riot?](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2102) Urging an angry mob to burn down a building or kill a person is a horrible thing we would never want someone to say. And it is, I think, quite reasonably illegal. My father hanged himself in the woods. I strenuously reject the idea that his doing so was in any way comparable to burning down a building or killing someone. He was a nonviolent man. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/178 "2019-02-08T00:02:54Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Geez, she only got 2 1/2 years, and only had to do 15 months of it in actual prison. If she had just gone in and done her time when she was sentenced, she’d be out on probation by now. Sometimes it’s better to take the punishment and get it over. Instead Carter has wasted time from her life for nothing. Has she been under bail restrictions this entire time? Sometimes bail with a ankle bracelet can pretty much be house arrest. Meanwhile her lawyers pocket a nice fee while she needlessly twists in the wind. She got off lucky with a slap on the wrist. Appealing just extends the case to her detriment. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/179 "2019-02-08T01:36:07Z")
That may be true for her personally. But it’s important for society at large that this be contested in the courts and hopefully overturned as a violation of her First Amendment right to free expression. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166/180 "2019-02-09T05:51:41Z")
Here is the logical inconsistency with the decision. Suppose instead of texting, she was present and saying these things out loud. If the young man was hearing these things, would anyone suggest that he could pull out a gun and shoot her in self defense? Of course not. Why? Because the reason is that he could “defend himself” simply by not following her directives. And for that reason, her words did not “cause” his death. Therefore she is not guilty of any form of homicide. I don’t necessarily view this as a free speech issue, but a causation issue. If we are going to hold that words can “cause” a death under these circumstances, then we must also agree that lethal force is appropriate to be consistent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-text-girl-convicted/789166.md?page=10)